Phoenix surface mission

rlb2 · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I hope this isn't a back tracking on their part.  I will be very disappointed because we all know something was found. Now the question is what? And what would be worth a cover up?  You would think past life would have been released right away. I cant wait until he comes on to a briefing and says he was refering to something else. Then I will scream cover up.I just hope the twitter site is wrong.  Posted by icemanmd</DIV>A cover-up right now is kind of a harsh rush to judgment however there are some questionable circumstances about what has happened so far, as I stated before, why someone would think so. A Bush speech about finding life on Mars would be a political nightmare for the Republicans; they depend so heavily on the fundamentalist Christian vote. They never came to terms about global warming yet why would they want to write their own political obituary by taking away their biggest chunk of support, the right-wing Christian vote? You may want to start a post in another section of this board dealing with this subject matter, if you do let me know I will contribute to it.     <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

dragon04 · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>A cover-up right now is kind of a harsh rush to judgment however there are some questionable circumstances about what has happened so far, as I stated before, why someone would think so.  A Bush speech about finding life on Mars would be a political nightmare for the Republicans; they depend so heavily on the fundamentalist Christian vote. They never came to terms about global warming yet why would they want to write their own political obituary by taking away their biggest chunk of support, the right-wing Christian vote? You may want to start a post in another section of this board dealing with this subject matter, if you do let me know I will contribute to it.     Posted by rlb2</DIV>Re-read what you posted and listen to yourself. You'll admit that you can't possibly be serious.If there IS truth to a Presidential Briefing, I'd certainly hope that it would rise above the discovery of low salinity water. That in and of itself is interesting, but certainly not worth bothering Heads of State with. Go carbonates! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!". </div>

rlb2 · Aug 3, 2008

Re-read what you posted and listen to yourself.Please read the first words I posted --- A cover-up right now is kind of a harsh rush to judgment.There are reasons why Bush wouldn't want to announce it if it dealt with life on another world, however this being said he may not hold back the announcement from someone else in the scientific community - so the truth is not lost yet in what ever it is they found.... Were dealt only a small amount of cards from the deck, you can only play with the hand that is dealt to you. The dealer, NASA and U of A, are the ones holding all the rest of the cards - we need to see all their cards...   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

3488 · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Re-read what you posted and listen to yourself.Please read the first words I posted --- A cover-up right now is kind of a harsh rush to judgment.There are reasons why Bush wouldn't want to announce it if it dealt with life on another world, however this being said he may not hold back the announcement from someone else in the scientific community - so the truth is not lost yet in what ever it is they found.... Were dealt only a small amount of cards from the deck, you can only play with the hand that is dealt to you. The dealer, NASA and U of A, are the ones holding all the rest of the cards right now - we need to see all their cards...   Posted by rlb2</DIV>Hi Ron,I do not think the NASA & U of A are keeping any cards to their chests.Any info needs to be properly peer reviewed as it should always be, but an un peer reviewd report from a trusted author, who in his or her best knowledge is true & accurate & endorsed by an official body prior to peer reviews is also acceptable.This bit of hyped up excitement does not appear to be even true, as Jon Clarke said earlier, it's not the first time AW&ST have overhyped or posted inaccurate info. This is looking just like a similar occurance.Also the raw images are made available every day & I am sure that if anything out of the ordinary is found, they'll say, like the high PH of the regolith, etc.As you say correctly, someone else within the legitimate scientific community will ensure that any info like that will be released through the proper channels.Please Ron, if you hear anything else, please bring it to our attention. If you are not happy with doing that, my email address: andrew.brown1969@btinternet.com & I will be very happy to discuss with you want you want to do. This IS very interesting & these are fascinating times regarding martian exploration. Hi All,Three more crops & enlargements from the Mission Success Panorama. #Looking east & also the scar left by the Heat Shield impact can be seen. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/10/a6622954-a39a-4a22-9a8a-84bc87a6b0ca.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Heat Shield impact scar in colour. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/6/4cc68cf3-0744-446f-b65a-99f81c0066ed.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Looking West. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/14/8038ed00-721c-433c-ae22-f7b47caf0182.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>A cover-up right now is kind of a harsh rush to judgment....     Posted by rlb2</DIV>Not only is it "kind of harsh" it is utterly uncalled for.  Whatever it is that the UA team have found it is obviously something they want to be absolutely confident of before they release it.  This is normal research practice.  It is what i would do in their shoes.A lot of people don't realise how much of a career limiting move it is for a researcher to go off half cocked without good evidence, reasoning, and supporting data.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Not only is it "kind of harsh" it is utterly uncalled for.  Whatever it is that the UA team have found it is obviously something they want to be absolutely condifiend of before they release it.  This is normal research practice.  It is what i would do in their shoes.A lot of peole don't realise how much of a career limiting move it is for a researcher to go off half cocked without good evidence, reasoning, and supporting data.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Exactly, thank you  Jon.What ever MECA has found, it needs to be properly looked at first. NASA / JPL / U of A could always publish an interim report beofre it is properly peer reviewed, but what AW appeared to do, was totally uncalled for & only give the wacko woo woo types more amo.They really need to tighten up their procedures before shooting their mouths off.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

rlb2 · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Also the raw images are made available every day & I am sure that if anything out of the ordinary is found, they'll say, like the high PH of the regolith, etc.As you say correctly, someone else within the legitimate scientific community will ensure that any info like that will be released through the proper channels.Please Ron, if you hear anything else, please bring it to our attention.   Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV>Hi Andrew I will do that.Although U of A gets their raw images from NASA/JPL they post theirs sometimes weeks before NASA does???? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>This is normal research practice.  It is what i would do in their shoes.A lot of people don't realise how much of a career limiting move it is for a researcher to go off half cocked without good evidence, reasoning, and supporting data.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>I agree with that however this no military or national security threat, the public owns the equipment and pays their salary. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

nimbus · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I agree with that however this no military or national security threat, the public owns the equipment and pays their salary. Posted by rlb2</DIV>And part of the work they're being paid for is to do their job correctly, including releasing good info. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

nimbus · Aug 3, 2008

I don't understand where you're going with this.  So far the phoenix team has been sharing pretty much everything almost instantly.  They're under a ton of pressure and have had to deal with some unexpected roadblocks.  I doubt open source policy is theirs to decide..  You can't just sign up for a job and then say you'll let someone else do it for you.This case by all accounts is exceptional, and apparently they've already got the findings into peer review; they're not sitting around twiddling their thumbs.  Two to four, or five weeks of waiting for the public release of some data that's particularily difficult to interpret in its full context is really not excessive.  Especialy if there's no doubt that that data could make very significant changes in its field.  Well... You deleted that post.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

rlb2 · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't understand where you're going with this.  So far the phoenix team has been sharing pretty much everything almost instantly.  Posted by nimbus</DIV>I retracted that before you posted your reply, I'm sorry I didn't want to get into a long drawn out debate about it. I agree that the Phoenix A team is working diligently and should be commended for what they done so far but if a discovery is made by a person outside that team they should get the credit not someone reading about it several days later. They should release what they have in a timelier manner, that would stop the rumors. I'm for open source type exploration, haven't figured out entirely how that would work yet, someone would still need to have a controlling interest for accountability purposes. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

neuvik · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> They should release what they have in a timelier manner, that would stop the rumors. I'm for open source type exploration, haven't figured out entirely how that would work yet, someone would still need to have a controlling interest for accountability purposes. Posted by rlb2</DIV> I think your missing the point the Jon Clark and others are trying to make.   If they release the information too early with conclusions that don't have proper evidence then they will severely damage their reputation as scientists, and loose the publics respects.I sure you would understand where they would be making certain assumptions if your were reading a preliminary report.  But if their is a news article each week saying that Mars Phoenix Lander discovers water.....and another disproving that, so forth an so on, well, that would just be plain sloppy. They have a lot of information to crunch, analyzing the grains structers of the materials will take probably the most time.  Since there they can tell how much water was once liquid.   Signs like cracks in the grain structures will indicate that water once froze, and a polsihed grain structure will indicate that liquid water flowed over the rock.  But I digress, again, releasing half completed reports will only bemisread and circulated by the media destroying the publics faith in science, and hindering any further missions; just wait a little bit longer. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I don't think I'm alone when I say, "I hope more planets fall under the ruthless domination of Earth!"SDC Boards: Power by PLuck - Ph**king Luck </div>

rlb2 · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> I think your missing the point the Jon Clark and others are trying to make.   If they release the information too early with conclusions that don't have proper evidence then they will severely damage their reputation as scientists, and loose the publics respects.I sure you would understand where they would be making certain assumptions if your were reading a preliminary report.  Posted by neuvik</DIV>I agree with Jon and others about taking their time to come to a conclusion but not in releasing what they have, just state the facts. They do this all the time at the MER rover sites. Let us come to our own conclusion about what is found. There is always that right of denial on their part to state "we haven't come to a conclusion yet in what we have, it could be this it could be that" etc, etc, like what they have been doing at the MER rover briefings. If they found Carbonates, it would be great but that wouldn't be earth shattering, I hope their not just holding information back about that, that would be demeaning and counter productive. I agree that finding such things as, amino acids and or life forms would complicate things a bit, that is what is feeding this rabid rumor meal - they could easily put out a disclaimer right away if its not.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

gawin · Aug 4, 2008

Every one here should be well aware of this quote. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." - Carl Sagan if they have found anything remotly extraordinary then they need to take the time to make damn sure that the proof is truly there. If they made a clame that later was found to be WRONG then forget about getting funding for any other mission what so ever.

rlb2 · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Every one here should be well aware of this quote. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." - Carl Sagan if they have found anything remotly extraordinary then they need to take the time to make damn sure that the proof is truly there. If they made a clame that later was found to be WRONG then forget about getting funding for any other mission what so ever.     Posted by gawin</DIV>That quote was the basis for remarkable discoveries for hundreds of years before Carl Sagan coined the words; he even mentioned it in several of his lectures about how the academic acceptance of extraordinary proof was established for the basis of remarkable results leading to a new accepted Theory. The problem is they don't need to make a claim or publish their work just give us the data like everybody else does.........I need to get some sleep, I will talk to you folks tomorrow.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

JonClarke · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I agree with that however this no military or national security threat, the public owns the equipment and pays their salary. Posted by rlb2</DIV>But does not mean that the public has a "right" to immediate access to raw data or even preliminary interpretations.It is standard practice for the primary researchers to have exclusive access to the data they have obtained for a period of time.  This allows them to establish their priority and protects their IP.It is also standard practice for public funded data not to be released until the data has been through a QAQC process to ensure it meets the required standards.  This protects the researchers and the government from litigation regarding release of poor quality data.Lastly it is also standard practice not to release primary data until the interpretations are available to enable the public to make sense of it and have the oppotunity to use it intelligently.Jon      <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

bearack · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Then the promise to release the data to the public as soon as it becomes available is hogwash. Come on there has been a whole host of poor data mixed in with the other data they released so far. The people at MER’s release their information in a timely manner they do things differently then the people at Phoenix. If they can use loosely veiled rules to protect the public from the information they get, no wonder the public is so skeptical about funding the space program ....     Posted by rlb2</DIV> You must admit, we are allot more fortunate than the people who depend on data from ESA. At times, there is months before their data is released.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /> </div>

rlb2 · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>You must admit, we are allot more fortunate than the people who depend on data from ESA. At times, there is months before their data is released.  Posted by bearack</DIV> Didn't know that, that should change if they want the public to continue paying for these missions. We pay their salary we pay for the equipment then they claim they have exclusive rights to all the data...  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

baulten · Aug 4, 2008

If they were to release preliminary data that ended up being false, can you imagine the public complaints?  "NASA Lies Again!"  "Another NASA Blunder!"  I can see the headlines now.It's much, much better this way.

MeteorWayne · Aug 4, 2008

Phoenix PI Peter Smith has commented on the issue,http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080804-phoenix-meca.html The issue bubbled up when it was reported Friday that some interesting results from Phoenix's wet chemistry laboratory, part of the Microscopy, Electrochemistry and Conductivity Analyzer (MECA) suite of instruments, were mentioned in a White House briefing.  Not so, says Phoenix principal investigator Peter Smith, of the University of Arizona, who denied that any details of the MECA findings had been shared and called the reports "bogus and damaging information."But Smith told SPACE.com that this was "not true, MECA results have not been discussed at the White House." "There is no one who knows either on the [Phoenix] project in Tucson or at [NASA] HQ who knows where this information came from," Smith said in a subsequent email. Smith also said that the MECA team was not present at the Thursday briefing because "they had nothing new to report, the story was about water ice." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

rlb2 · Aug 4, 2008

This is the type of denial that I was looking for it should have been done right away and not three days later. NASA Scientist: Reports of Mars Life Finding Are 'Bogus'   Smith added that the results from the analysis of the second soil sample in MECA's wet chemistry lab didn't have any bearing on the question of Mars' past habitability "in any direct way.""We are attempting to assess the chemicals and minerals that make up the soil composition," he explained. "We are now about half way through the process and there are several conflicting points of view. This is not a good time to go public with half the story." ?????????? The MER team would have told people what those conflicting points of view were. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

MeteorWayne · Aug 4, 2008

Peter's job is as the Pricipal Investigator for Phoenix. It is not to track down and refute every internet rumour floating around. That would be a full time job, but not the one that he's hired for. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

rlb2 · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Peter's job is as the Pricipal Investigator for Phoenix. It is not to track down and refute every internet rumour floating around. That would be a full time job, but not the one that he's hired for. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>This wasn't just an internet rumor it was posted by some news organizations which should be handled right away.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

MeteorWayne · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>This wasn't just an internet rumor it was posted by some news organizations which should be handled right away.   Posted by rlb2</DIV> It's still not his job. His job is to run the Phoenix Science Program. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>This wasn't just an internet rumor it was posted by some news organizations which should be handled right away.   Posted by rlb2</DIV> Please show me where "some news organizations" posted the story. I have looked and have found nothing in any media outlet, so if you know of one, please show us so we can look at what was actually said.NASA very quickly posted a twitter announcement saying the story/rumor was inaccurate.I submit it was a wound up internet rumor, which is not what a PI should be wasting their time on. SHow me wrong if you can, and I'll gladly admit it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

Phoenix surface mission

rlb2

Guest

dragon04

Guest

rlb2

Guest

3488

Guest

JonClarke

Guest

3488

Guest

rlb2

Guest

rlb2

Guest

nimbus

Guest

nimbus

Guest

rlb2

Guest

neuvik

Guest

rlb2

Guest

gawin

Guest

rlb2

Guest

JonClarke

Guest

bearack

Guest

rlb2

Guest

baulten

Guest

MeteorWayne

Guest

rlb2

Guest

MeteorWayne

Guest

rlb2

Guest

MeteorWayne

Guest

MeteorWayne

Guest

Similar threads

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts

Share this page