Phoenix surface mission

stupidlaminatedrock · Aug 4, 2008

What the hell is perchlorate doing on the martian surface. Thats rocket fuel. No way. It must of came from earth. My theory is the water samples they brought from earth. The TEGA is very sensitive  and will sniff out the smallest amounts. We have all kinds of stuff in our water supply.  Also pheonix engines dont use perchlorate. This is very sad news, but fascinating also.

stupidlaminatedrock · Aug 4, 2008

Also I think its a hydrocarbon?

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I posted this in another thread, but it probably is better here:Our own Jon Clarke was extensively quoted here about this issue:http://www.smh.com.au/news/science/have-they-found-poo-on-red-planet/2008/08/04/1217701947632.htmlI don't believe there is a huge conspiracy going on, BUT,  if something major had been found -- major enough that the white house had been briefed, would that briefing be admitted? Of course not.  As soon as the briefing had been admitted, the VERY NEXT question would be:  What was the briefing about?  A no comment would have have ignited a frenzy.  As has been stated numerous times here, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  If life on Mars has been found (past or present), such information would not be released until it was double-checked, triple-checked, etc.Now, I am not a member of the woo-woo crowd.  But my point is, if there was not a white house briefing about life on Mars, of course that briefing would have been denied.  If there was, however, a white house briefing on life on Mars, that briefing would ALSO have been denied, until the evidence was double and triple checked.  To think otherwise, is just to be amazingly naive. Posted by robnissen</DIV>Interesting.Ammonia is also one of the components you get as hydrazine reacts with the catalyst used in monopropellant thrusters.If there is ammonia being found, I would think they'd check that decomposition first before moving on. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

silylene old · Aug 4, 2008

I am so happy that perchlorate was found in the soil.  Why?1. This confirms earlier Viking results which were interpreted as finding peroxides in the soil.  I like to see loose ends tied up.2. The will finally put to an end that very assinine comment about Martian soil being good for growing 'asparagus'.3. The study of photochemistry of the Martian soil and atmosphere will become increasingly important in future Mars research.  This is how I suspect that these peroxides are being formed.  And I like photochemistry.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

silylene old · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I posted this in another thread, but it probably is better here:Our own Jon Clarke was extensively quoted here about this issue:http://www.smh.com.au/news/science/have-they-found-poo-on-red-planet/2008/08/04/1217701947632.htmlI.... Posted by robnissen</DIV>I suspect Jon won't be too happy with what the Sydney Morning Herald paper printed in this interview.  Somehow they twisted Jon's comments into making it sound as if the Martian polar soils were contaminated with farm fertilizer runoff.  And Jon did not say that ammonium nitrate was detected, only that the instrument was capable of detecting these ions.This crappy story only reinforces my already very negative view of the media's inability to report science in any meaningful manner. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

silylene old · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>What the hell is perchlorate doing on the martian surface. Thats rocket fuel. No way. It must of came from earth. My theory is the water samples they brought from earth. The TEGA is very sensitive  and will sniff out the smallest amounts. We have all kinds of stuff in our water supply.  Also pheonix engines dont use perchlorate. This is very sad news, but fascinating also. Posted by stupidlaminatedrock</DIV> Sigh....Perchlorate didn't come from Earth.Now that I have your attention...Perchlorates are formed photochemically !For example, see: http://sephas.dri.edu/Docs/Miller_Photochem_tranform_rxns.pdfPhotochemical Transformation Reactions on Desert Soil Surfaces Submitted to the Nevada NSF EPSCoR Program: Scaling Environmental Processes in Heterogeneous Arid Soils (SEPHAS) By Glenn C. Miller, Professor Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Sciences Mail Stop 199 University of Nevada Reno, NV 89557 ....SNIP....Desert Soils and Titanium Dioxide as Semiconductor Photocatalysts: In the previous two years, we have initiated experiments that have demonstrated the photochemical formation of perchlorate on titanium dioxide and desert sands in the presence of chloride (Table 1a, 1b), and we believe that at least part of the perchlorate found in desert soils and groundwater is from this photocatalyzed reaction. The concentrations vary dramatically with different soils, and further information is required for a more complete understanding of the soil properties that catalyze this reaction. Titanium dioxide (TiO2) is common soil constituent and a semiconducting material which can be photochemically stimulated by light energy. It is primarily extracted from sand deposits. Two active forms of TiO2 are commonly known in heterogeneous photocatalytic reactions, rutile and anatase, with anatase being photocatalytically more active. When the anatase phase is excited by light quantum of energy equal to or greater than the band-gap energy 3.2 eV (corresponding to a wavelength (λ) ~385nm) it promotes an electron from the valence band to the empty conduction band and produces electron-hole pairs that undergo further redox reactions. The electron reacts with O2 and the hole reacts with OH¯ to produce ·OH (Fig. 1). It is thermodynamically favorable for the hole to oxidize water to ·OH and for the electron to reduce O2 at -0.13 eV. This type of photocatalytic reaction requires a semiconductor with band-gap energy greater than 3 eV, making anatase an ideal photocatalyst [29]. The photocatalytic activity of TiO2 is substantially influenced by the anatase or rutile structural form, surface area, impurities, porosity, surface hydroxyl group density, etc. These properties affect the photoproduction of electron-hole pairs, the surface adsorption and desorption process and the redox process [29].  ++++++++++++++++++++++Or see:Photochemical formation of perchlorate from aqueous oxychlorine anions Anal. Chem. Actahttp://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TF4-4JD0H75-5&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=b5cb9611f8b3bb84567a03149cc336aa++++++++++++++Oh finally, you may find this article to be interesting too:http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TF4-4JD0H75-5&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=b5cb9611f8b3bb84567a03149cc336aaDetection and characterization of oxidizing acids in the Atacama Desert <div class="articleText" style="display:inline"><h3 class="h3">Abstract</h3>Evidence of atmospherically produced perchlorate is being accumulated, yet information regarding its formation process is largely unknown. For the first time, the present study demonstrates that perchlorate can be generated as an end-product of photochemical transformation reactions of chlorine precursors such as aqueous salt solutions of hypochlorite, chlorite, and chlorate upon exposure to ultraviolet (UV) radiation. For example, under exposure to UV light from photochemical reactor lamps at a peak wavelength of 253.7 nm for 7 days, the observed perchlorate concentrations were 5, 25, and 626 μg/L at initial chlorite concentrations of 100, 1000, and 10,000 mg/L, respectively. In addition, perchlorate was generated within 7 days from aqueous chlorite solutions at mid-latitude (33°59′N, 101°89′W) spring and summer solar radiation. Via UV radiation from the artificial lamps and sunlight, chlorite was converted to chloride (68%) and chlorate (32%) as end-products on the basis of molar percentage. However, perchlorate was not detected from aqueous chloride solutions at initial concentrations up to 10,000 mg/L under the experimental conditions. Relevant mechanistic pathways were proposed based on the fact that chlorine dioxide (as a primary intermediate) may play a significant role in phototransformation of the precursors leading to perchlorate.</div>using the Mars Oxidation Instrument <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

MeteorWayne · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Yea, how many times did you start such hysterical debates here by simply posting something. I just Posted the article and gave my views about it during the whole time requesting a denial from U of A.  Posted by rlb2</DIV> I don't ever recall startinga hysterical debate, though I'm sure it could have happened.Why should U of A honor you request for a denial? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

rlb2 · Aug 4, 2008

You picked on the wrong person to falsely accuse of mass hysteria.Why should U of A honor you request for a denial? Posted by MeteorWayneCoy play on the meaning of my words shows a high degree of maturity.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I suspect Jon won't be too happy with what the Sydney Morning Herald paper printed in this interview.  Somehow they twisted Jon's comments into making it sound as if the Martian polar soils were contaminated with farm fertilizer runoff.  And Jon did not say that ammonium nitrate was detected, only that the instrument was capable of detecting these ions.This crappy story only reinforces my already very negative view of the media's inability to report science in any meaningful manner. Posted by silylene</DIV>I agree it was emphasized a bit dramatically.  In then, it is only speculation concerning ammonium nitrate (or other ammonia bearing compound) and what the impact would be if it was such.  Australia also is very sensitive to subjects concerning fertilzer run-off and ammonium nitrate/other fertilizer and farm products.  They're been blasted in the past by various groups, sometimes righteously so, for untoward effects of the ocean/ecosystem because of that.Jon has a good relationship with various media in his region, IIRC.  I don't think it was anything intentional on the part of the media to do anything overt with his statements.  They just naturally associated ammonium nitrate with the fertilizer angle and that is something their readers can easily identify with.I don't know enough about what is going on "up there" regarding sampling, testing, analysis etc.  I'd be intensely interested if they found traces of ammonia.  Of more interest, to myself, is what impact they believe the hydrazine thrusters have had on the surroundings and if ammonia and other compounds produced by the reaction of hydrazine and the catalyst have been specifically ruled out or guarded against in sampling/analysis. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

derekmcd · Aug 4, 2008

I hope that whatever is going on is not so ambiguous that we end up with two camps of folks arguing for 20 years about what the facts are. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>....Now, I am not a member of the woo-woo crowd.  But my point is, if there was not a white house briefing about life on Mars, of course that briefing would have been denied.  If there was, however, a white house briefing on life on Mars, that briefing would ALSO have been denied, until the evidence was double and triple checked.  To think otherwise, is just to be amazingly naive. Posted by robnissen</DIV>First of all, if there was a White House briefing there'd be no way to really deny it.  What are they going to do, hide the results when the attention of the World is focused on them?  I don't think so.  In fact, they could freely admit to any White House briefing as just being a matter of procedure because the White House is interested in the subject.  They don't have to publish the contents of the brief.  But, in this situation, that sort of activity would be something that only the terminally stupid would attempt. To be honest, it is a "storm in a teacup" right now until we KNOW what is going on.  Improper speculation by us can only hurt NASA, in my opinion.  It fuels such rumors as "aliens found on the Moon" and "ET left his thermos on Mars" type of stuff.Speculation is fine but only when it is done with a modicum of restraint in such a situation.  NASA is in the spotlight.  The World is watching.  Doing them a disservice by making accusations of an active cover-up, even speculations regarding one, isn't something that furthers our shared goal as loyal "fans" of space exploration.We'll listen to what they have to say.  We'll read the reports.  We will ask questions and we will listen to their answers.  NASA is reliable.  They're scientists and explorers.  They WANT to tell us new and exciting news.  But, they're going to be darn sure it is correct before they go spreading the Word on the winds of public opinion.  One misstep, one slip of the tongue and the high profile coverage they are receiving doesn't end up furthering mankind's knowledge and exploration of Space but ends up feeding the grist mill of the dark, seedy corners of the woo-woo tinfoil hat crowd. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I hope that whatever is going on is not so ambiguous that we end up with two camps of folks arguing for 20 years about what the facts are. Posted by derekmcd</DIV>Amen brother.Hit the nail on the head.Please, please, please, Powers That Be, let this be the final battleground... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

exoscientist · Aug 5, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I am so happy that perchlorate was found in the soil.  Why?1. This confirms earlier Viking results which were interpreted as finding peroxides in the soil.  I like to see loose ends tied up.2. The will finally put to an end that very assinine comment about Martian soil being good for growing 'asparagus'.3. The study of photochemistry of the Martian soil and atmosphere will become increasingly important in future Mars research.  This is how I suspect that these peroxides are being formed.  And I like photochemistry.... Posted by silylene</DIV>  Surprisingly the presence of perchlorates would not necessarily rule out life, as some microbes are able to metabolize chlorates and perchlorates:22-January-2005, 05:40 PM Possibilities for life on Mars - a surprising new microbe. RGClark Senior Member http://www.bautforum.com/life-space/15752-possibilities-life-mars-surprising-new-microbe.html    Bob Clark     <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 5, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Surprisingly the presence of perchlorates would not necessarily rule out life, as some microbes are able to metabolize chlorates and perchlorates:22-January-2005, 05:40 PMPossibilities for life on Mars - a surprising new microbe.RGClarkSenior Memberhttp://www.bautforum.com/life-space/15752-possibilities-life-mars-surprising-new-microbe.html Bob Clark    Posted by exoscientist</DIV>So, with perchlorate using microbes we would expect to see chloride waste products?I wonder, if there were bacteria present capable of using ammonia, would they have had a field-day when the thruster wash hit the ground? http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/11/1109_051109_rocketfuel.html  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

JonClarke · Aug 5, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I suspect Jon won't be too happy with what the Sydney Morning Herald paper printed in this interview.  Somehow they twisted Jon's comments into making it sound as if the Martian polar soils were contaminated with farm fertilizer runoff.  And Jon did not say that ammonium nitrate was detected, only that the instrument was capable of detecting these ions.This crappy story only reinforces my already very negative view of the media's inability to report science in any meaningful manner. Posted by silylene</DIV>The story behind this is quite interesting, I think.Yeserday I was approached by the journalist who i had a bit to do with before and he wanted to do a story regarding the rumours.  because there was nothing concrete at that time he wanted to be slightly lighted hearted.  So we talked through the issues and I gave my suggestion that maybe what had been found was high levels of nitrogen salts.  I got to preview the piece and while it is not quite the line I would have taken I was happy with the slightly tongue in cheek tone and made a few minor changes.Neither of us expected the result.  it was run in Brisbane and Melbourne in the leading papers there and apprently bcame the most downloaded story of the day.  I was rung by journalists all day and did six live to air interviews and will do another two tomorrow.Of course we were overtaken by events.  What was really found was perchlorate salts, not nitrogen as we found out from the JPL press release the same morning.  Not as exciting as bug poo or bug food, but of course very important.So as a result I got to told thousands of people on local and national radio the latest Phoenix results.  I was able to explain why I though nitrogen salts might have been involved, and why I was wrong.  I talked about the Viking results and the mysterious soil activity, the various theories explaining them, and why it has taken 32 years to test them.  And of course to explain the implications for astrobiology and what phoenix might find next.  The audience heard about the scientific method and why negative results are as iportant as positive ones for understanding the world.The SMH journalist wrote a follow up story and this will run tomorrow, assuming the editors let it through.  Hopefully I can include the results in the press conference for the two early morning progreams I do tomorrow.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Aug 5, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I am so happy that perchlorate was found in the soil.  Why?1. This confirms earlier Viking results which were interpreted as finding peroxides in the soil.  I like to see loose ends tied up.</DIV>Certainly these results provide strong support for the explanation of the Viking results as soil oxidants.  Note that what have found are perchlorates, not periods.  These were also suggested, I recall, although less commonly than peroxides.  All we need now is confirmation that soil horizons with perchlorate lack organic matter.  Even the theories that have been shown wrong in our picture of Mars by Phoenix, it is nice to see that some have been proved right as well.Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>2. The will finally put to an end that very assinine comment about Martian soil being good for growing 'asparagus'.</DIV>Obviously you don't like asparagus!  However the presence of perchorates at even 100 ppm levels don't preclude the ability of a soil to support life.  Chilean nitrate deposits were very rich in perchlorates and these were extensively mined for fertilizer.  And, if you add water you can groww vegetables quite well in Atacama soils, provided they are not too salty. And while we haven't been given numbers we have the verbal comment that the soils were only weakly oxidising and the observation that the dissolved salts (which would include perchlorates) are no more than 1000 ppm.  I could be surprised by there is more the than 100 ppm perchlorate in the soil, andd would expect a 10s of ppm.Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>3. The study of photochemistry of the Martian soil and atmosphere will become increasingly important in future Mars research.  This is how I suspect that these peroxides are being formed.  And I like photochemistry.... Posted by silylene</DIV>Again, we are dealing with perchlorates, not peroxides.  Although for the Chilean deposits some sort of atmospheric origin is possible.  Maybe peroides as an intermediate step reaction with the small amount of chloride salts?  Note that in Chile the perchlorate occurs only at the surface.  Levels deeper beneath the surface lack perchlorate.  the serface levels lack organic matter and microbes, but both are found at depth.  Interestingly the TEGA did not find signs of perchlorate (presumably as a decomposition product) in the deepest sample, the one that contained ice.  this means that the search strategy behind Phoenix - look for organics deeper in the soil because the oxidants may be absent at depth - was correct.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Aug 5, 2008

Decomposition of Organic Compounds by Atacama Desert Soils and on Marshttp://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU06/09253/EGU06-J-09253.pdfEnvironmental perchloratehttp://www.elmontgomery.net/docs/publications/M&A_PerchloratePosterSummary.pdfJon  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Aug 5, 2008

Thanks Jon for you informative posts. Very interesting to read & learn.There are some rather nice early morning Sol 70 images coming in.Alt - 33.57 Deg Azm 324.54 deg @ 03:26 Hrs local time Scandia Colles. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/1/3e16f28d-52de-479f-81e4-99ad888832e4.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Alt - 33.53 Deg Azm 321.16 deg @ 03:33 Hrs local time Scandia Colles. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/15/5a8cf437-4157-4dfa-9f54-6d5fa628ad1e.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Alt - 38.86 Deg Azm 4.33 deg @ 03:42 Hrs local time Scandia Colles. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/10/d421c6bb-931a-4ff6-8a70-4a1ae77f39bd.Medium.jpg" alt="" /><a href="http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=17980&cID=203" target="_blank">Alt - 29.81 Deg Azm 62.81 deg @ 03:59 Hrs local time Scandia Colles.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=17969&cID=203</a><img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/7/95d3600d-06d2-40ae-a743-b9803cbe7f67.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

silylene old · Aug 5, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The SMH journalist wrote a follow up story and this will run tomorrow, assuming the editors let it through.  Hopefully I can include the results in the press conference for the two early morning progreams I do tomorrow.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Jon, I appreciate the story behind the story.  Please  supply us with a link to the follow up story.  Thanks! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

centsworth_II · Aug 5, 2008

<div class="name_address"><div class="address">Hopefully those interested will be able to listen in: </div><div class="address"> </div><div class="address">NASA News Audio Live Streaming</div><div> </div></div> COMING UP: 2 p.m. EDT, Tuesday, Aug. 5: Phoenix Mars Lander NASA will hold a media teleconference on Tuesday, Aug. 5, at 2 p.m. EDT to provide an update on the Phoenix Mars Lander Mission. * A link to the streaming audio will appear here before the event.http://www.nasa.gov/news/media/newsaudio/index.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Aug 5, 2008

For Emily Lakawanda's take on this (which pretty much agrees with mine) see:http://www.planetary.org/blog/ i.e an "Internet Rumor"teleconference starting within a minute or two. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

bobw · Aug 5, 2008

centsworth_II  thanks for the heads up about the conference... would have missed it if not for you. a few scribblenotes: Perchlorate probably not responsible for viking results because it is stable and oxygen is not liberated from it when it gets wet. Perchlorate should not affect habitability because it is stable, does not degrade organic compounds.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Aug 5, 2008

News Coference headlines...What set stage was weekend reports that information has been witheld from the public. Set the record straight. We don't really want to release partially analyzed results, but we will release partial information earlier than planned. We'd rather have completed the analysis, then released results.MM: Many exciting discoveries, issues with the analysis of the results have not been resolved. We would rather wait for full analysis and peer review. This is to announce a non-announcement. Any other findings will disclosed when confirmed.PS: They did this unusual step, of releasing unalaized information for a window to see scientific progress in action. Rampant speculation on web, but the process of analysis is not completed.Multiple hypothesis being examined. Possible perchlorates, hyper arid environment. It's an important piece of the habitabilty puzzle. Other substances are possible, we need to let the tests continue.BTW, Craig Covault got the first 2 questions, but did not address the disagreement between his reports, and everyone else's position.I'll stop here and do another headline post as I read down.MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

rlb2 · Aug 5, 2008

<h1 style="margin-top:0in;background:white;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in"><h1 style="margin-top:0in;background:white;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in"><h1 style="margin-top:0in;background:white;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in"><h1 style="margin-top:0in;background:white;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in"><h1 style="margin-top:0in;background:white;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in">Deleted re-entered below - couldn't control my font size?</h1></h1></h1></h1></h1> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

robnissen · Aug 5, 2008

It is amazing how often the media botches science stories.  After the press conference, I checked google news and found numerous stories about the press conference that were flatly wrong.  Below, however, is a very nice story about the press conference that is worth reading:http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080805-nasa-shoots-down-mars-rumors-were-not-sure-what-weve-got.html

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