Phoenix surface mission

h2ouniverse · Aug 5, 2008

Hi allThe perchlorate stuff is no special news imo. NASA scientists have been considering Atacama desert soil as a fair equivalent to Martian soil for a while. And in particular because of its content in perchlorate. As far as life on Mars is concerned, this only confirms that life on the very surface is unlikely, which, as Andrew pointed out, has been mainstream opinion. But with Phoenix findings, I'm more and mor confident about extant life on Mars. Not perchlorate-eating microbes at the surface (although that might be a possibility) but undergound, below the ice layers.In the parts of the Atacama desert that are devoid of life at the surface, life thrives in-depth, where water and carbon compounds have neutralized the oxidants. As you point out Silylene, photochemistry is needed to re-supply these species.The latest thermal models ( http://cosis.net/abstracts/EPSC2008/00337/EPSC2008-A-00337-1.pdf?PHPSESSID=658129784e12ec9c959eaf92e739cae3&nbsp

point to a slope of about 6K per km for in-depth temperature increase. That means temperatures above 273K at several kms undergound, for pressures of few hundreds of bars (i.e. the p,T conditions in our oceans at about 3000m-depth.)With all this water ice, it seems untenable imho to believe that no liquid water can be present in the deep undergound. Best regards.

h2ouniverse · Aug 5, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>"Perchlorate probably not responsible for viking results because it is stable and oxygen is not liberated from it when it gets wet.  Posted by bobw</DIV> Huh? Isn't perchlorate used as an emergency supply source of oxygen? (used on Mir in 1997 during the accident depressurizing a part of the station)

bobw · Aug 5, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Huh? Isn't perchlorate used as an emergency supply source of oxygen? (used on Mir in 1997 during the accident depressurizing a part of the station) Posted by h2ouniverse</DIV>Don't know about the mir... maybe they get the O2 out with high temps and/or a catalyst. In the press conference the guy (sorry can't remember name) said it is found on earth surface only where it is dry because it is formed, like silylene said, on dust by UV.  It is highly soluble in water, though, so where it rains the perchlorate flushes through the soil and ends up mostly in streams as opposed to in the dirt.  If it reacted with water (at environmental temperatures) releasing its oxygen I wouldn't expect it to be found in streams, would you? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

rlb2 · Aug 5, 2008

Toxin in soil may mean no life on Marshttp://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/space/08/04/nasa.mars/index.htmlThose inflaming hyperventilating rumor moguls spreading hysteria all over the net and the rest of the world. ---------------------------------------------------------------  Anyone reading the above statement should be aware that meteorwayne accused me of spreading hysteria - I'm personally not blasting the media nor did I promote hysteria...Note some life forms thrive with perchlorates in the environment.I was very pleased with the way they conducted the briefing, some intelligent questions were asked not all were answered. It was a little disapointing not finding out more than just perchlorates, there seems to be a hidden story not fully written yet that their not telling us. They sound like they may open it up more to include others - this was a positive step somthing that would get more experts in their fields involved.Some other things to look for in earth born contaminates:The hydrazine was contaminated with chlorine that was in the production of the hydrazine: Hydrazine is produced in the Olin Raschig process from sodium hypochlorite (the active ingredient in many bleaches) and ammonia, a process announced in 1907. This method relies on the reaction of chloramine with ammonia.[6] Ammonia is readily available from the Haber process.The Olin Raschig route to hydrazine involves oxidation of urea with sodium hypochlorite:[7](H2N)2C=O + NaOCl + 2 NaOH → N2H4 + H2O + NaCl + Na2CO3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrazine   The process in building the rocket thrusters may have used chlorides/ chlorine such as in the heat-treat process to harden the material -  one heat treat annealed method that may have been used is to dip the parts into molten salts heated to several hundred degrees…other contributors could be the plating, paint, nital-etch, cleaning solution, or the material itself. The hydrazine heats things up real fast, the thrusters may be giving off toxins from the inside of the thrusters that was embedded by some kind of machine processes that built it, the chlorine from the perchlorates in the soil may have originated there.   This is just a preliminary thought of some other reasons perchlorates could  have been found at the Phoenix site that wasn't mentioned at the news conference....One added tidbit from the briefing.One person at the briefing, sorry I didn't write down his name, was asked where did the perchlorates come from in the Atacama Desert, his reply was - some think it is from atmosphere of the nearby ocean???   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

JonClarke · Aug 5, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Jon, I appreciate the story behind the story.  Please  supply us with a link to the follow up story.  Thanks! Posted by silylene</DIV>http://www.smh.com.au/news/science/martian-soil-may-not-have-life-after-all/2008/08/04/1217701947632.html cheers Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

bobw · Aug 5, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Huh? Isn't perchlorate used as an emergency supply source of oxygen? (used on Mir in 1997 during the accident depressurizing a part of the station) Posted by h2ouniverse</DIV>Second part of answer, I hate to edit my posts after others make mine not the last one.

I couldn't find anything at Space.com but did find a little bit at  Florida Today Space Team Blog "In itself it is neither good nor bad for life," said Peter Smith, principal investigator of the Mars Phoenix Lander project. "These compounds are quite stable and do not destroy organic molecules." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

rlb2 · Aug 5, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>With all this water ice, it seems untenable imho to believe that no liquid water can be present in the deep undergound. Best regards. Posted by h2ouniverse</DIV>I wouldn't be to sure of that if you can compare Mars North pole with our own Antarctica.Lake Vostok lies in the heart of the Antarctic continent hidden beneath 4 kilometers of ice (see map). As big as Lake Ontario in North America, Lake Vostok is one of the world's biggest freshwater lakes. Lake Vostok has been covered by the vast Antarctic ice sheet for up to 25 million years.  The lake was named for the Russian research station that sits above its southern tip - a place where in 1983 the temperature fell below -129°F (-89°C), the coldest ever recorded temperature on Earth. More than 145 lakes have been identified beneath the thick Antarctic ice sheet. Most of these lakes, covered between 3-4 kilometers of ice, are several kilometers long (see map). One of these lakes, Lake Vostok (left), is an order of magnitude larger than all other known lakes http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~mstuding/vostok.html http://www.forbes.com/2008/06/19/lake-vostok-antarctica-tech-water08-cx_ja_0619anthony.html http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080716/full/454258a.html Exotic-looking microbes turn up in ancient Antarctic ice http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast12MAR98_1.htm   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 6, 2008

Unfortunately, I missed the broadcast.  Is there an archive somewhere I can listen to?In particular, I want to know if any questions were asked concerned how the Team expects the exhaust from the thrusters would effect analysis or if they have no worries concerning that because of (insert reason here.) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

paulscottanderson · Aug 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Unfortunately, I missed the broadcast.  Is there an archive somewhere I can listen to?In particular, I want to know if any questions were asked concerned how the Team expects the exhaust from the thrusters would effect analysis or if they have no worries concerning that because of (insert reason here.) Posted by a_lost_packet_</DIV>You can hear it here:http://cboh.org/~jmk/jpl0805.mp3So, the findings don't preclude life at all in themselves, and also are unlikely to explain the earlier Viking results according to the Phoenix team. Interesting stuff.Paul  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------The Meridiani Journal a chronicle of planetary exploration web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Tou can hear it here:http://cboh.org/~jmk/jpl0805.mp3So, the findings don't preclude life at all in themselves, and also are unlikely to explain the earlier Viking results according to the Phoenix team. Interesting stuff.Paul  Posted by paulscottanderson</DIV>Thanks! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

centsworth_II · Aug 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...I want to know if any questions were asked concerned how the Team expects the exhaust from the thrusters could effect analysis... Posted by a_lost_packet_</DIV> Yes they talked about looking at the possibility of contamination but said there was little chance of it.  The landing thrusters used no perchlorates.  Only the third stage which started Phoenix on its journey from Earth to Mars used perchlorate fuel and the lander was well isolated from that.  Also, in calibration testing after landing and before analysis of Mars soil, no perchlorate was detected in the test apparatus. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Yes they talked about looking at the possibility of contamination but said there was little chance of it.  The landing thrusters used no perchlorates.  Only the third stage which started Phoenix on its journey from Earth to Mars used perchlorate fuel and the lander was well isolated from that.  Also, in calibration testing after landing and before analysis of Mars soil, no perchlorate was detected in the test apparatus. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV><still listening to the broadcast>Yes, I hear that now.I know that the hydrazine thrusters aren't under scrutiny.  But, as a point of related curiousity, I'd like to know what they think the impacts, if any, are of the thrusters on the surrounding area.  Also, if any traces of possible thruster contaminants have already been accounted for in the analysis, such as ammonia, etc..The on-site calibration rules out contamination by the third stage boost.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

stupidlaminatedrock · Aug 6, 2008

Im so confused. I dont think contamination occured because the levels were found underneath the soil. So why, is it there? How is it there. This is just confusing. Where is all the mars oxygen to make so much percholate? So the amounts cant be that much.  Im guessing its Sodium NaClO4. Although NASA has not said.  Hey you guys, there could still be microbes. They just take chlorine dumps.

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 6, 2008

Percholorates and "stickiness"...Could the cause of the sample "sticking" in the scoop been due to a small amount of perchlorates?  As the rasp drilled away and possibly heated the material, could water/water vapor have been released/generated from the ice and then been eventually absorbed by perchlorates, yielding a slightly tacky mass?No chlorine was found, as of yet, but that doesn't rule out perchlorates, it only either narrows the field and rules out magnesium, calcium or iron based perchlorates or it points to perchlorates with impurities, IIRC the briefing correctly.Are there other forms of perchlorates that would behave similarly to magnesium perchlorate and absorb water which renders them slightly "sticky?" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

rlb2 · Aug 6, 2008

"These compounds are quite stable in soil and water and do not destroy organic materials under normal circumstances. In fact there are species of perchlorate-producing microbes that live on the energy provided by this oxidant."http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/space/08/05/mars.soil/index.htmlDid I miss something here how can you produce perchlorate and then live off of it, aactually nitrogen fixers do that. If there are perchlorate-producing microbes on earth then what are they??? I doubt this is printed right however what if there are perchlorate-producing microbes then this could mean this can be considered a loose connection to life, besides a more straightforward connection like methane. As I said I doubt he meant that way but......... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>"These compounds are quite stable in soil and water and do not destroy organic materials under normal circumstances. In fact there are species of perchlorate-producing microbes that live on the energy provided by this oxidant."http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/space/08/05/mars.soil/index.htmlDid I miss something here how can you produce perchlorate and then live off of it, aactually nitrogen fixers do that. If there are perchlorate-producing microbes on earth then what are they??? I doubt this is printed right however what if there are perchlorate-producing microbes then this could mean this can be considered a loose connection to life, besides a more straightforward connection like methane. As I said I doubt he meant that way but......... Posted by rlb2</DIV>There are "perchlorate fixing microbes."  Perhaps the reporter was confused between the uses of the term "fixing" and "producing?"  /shrug <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

centsworth_II · Aug 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There are "perchlorate fixing microbes."  Perhaps the reporter was confused between the uses of the term "fixing" and "producing?"  /shrug Posted by a_lost_packet_</DIV>Right.  I think there was an error.  Either Peter Smith misspoke or was misquoted.  That should be (IMHO) perchlorate-reducing rather than perchlorate-producing bacteria.  The perchlorate is produced by photochemical reactions in the environment, locking up energy from the sun that can later be released by organisms designed to use perchlorate as an energy source. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

rlb2 · Aug 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There are "perchlorate fixing microbes."  Perhaps the reporter was confused between the uses of the term "fixing" and "producing?"  /shrug Posted by a_lost_packet_</DIV>----------------------------------------------Right.  I think there was an error.  Either Peter Smith misspoke or was misquoted.  That should be (IMHO) perchlorate-reducing rather than perchlorate-producing bacteria.  The perchlorate is produced by photochemical reactions in the environment, locking up energy from the sun that can later be released by organisms designed to use perchlorate as an energy source. Posted by centsworth_II---------------------------------------------------------------------That itself is enough for them to be so exited. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Right.  I think there was an error.  Either Peter Smith misspoke or was misquoted.  That should be (IMHO) perchlorate-reducing rather than perchlorate-producing bacteria.  The perchlorate is produced by photochemical reactions in the environment, locking up energy from the sun that can later be released by organisms designed to use perchlorate as an energy source. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>/agreeI did not hear any mention of perchlorate "producing" organisms but there was mention of organisms that fix or otherwise consume/use perchlorates as energy. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>----------------------------------------------Right.  I think there was an error.  Either Peter Smith misspoke or was misquoted.  That should be (IMHO) perchlorate-reducing rather than perchlorate-producing bacteria.  The perchlorate is produced by photochemical reactions in the environment, locking up energy from the sun that can later be released by organisms designed to use perchlorate as an energy source. Posted by centsworth_II---------------------------------------------------------------------That itself is enough for them to be so exited. Posted by rlb2</DIV>/agreeIncidentally, this does present a mechanism for life on Mars.  A possible Martian "perchlorate" cycle in microbiotic life? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

centsworth_II · Aug 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...Where is all the mars oxygen to make so much percholate? So the amounts cant be that much.  Im guessing its Sodium NaClO4. Although NASA has not said... Posted by stupidlaminatedrock</DIV> There is plenty of oxygen around locked up in sulphate dust and as CO2.  I don't know if either or both of those could be the source of the oxygen.  As for the specific type of perchlorate, they said there is likely a mixture of types and that it will take a lot of data and analysis to sort that out.  They also have not yet worked out concentrations.  They have yet to see evidence of perchlorate in TEGA data which would be a big help in figuring all this out.  Hopefully that will be forthcoming.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

rlb2 · Aug 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There is plenty of oxygen around locked up in sulphate dust and as CO2.  I don't know if either or both of those could be the source of the oxygen.  As for the specific type of perchlorate, they said there is likely a mixture of types and that it will take a lot of data and analysis to sort that out.  They also have not yet worked out concentrations.  They have yet to see evidence of perchlorate in TEGA data which would be a big help in figuring all this out.  Hopefully that will be forthcoming.  Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>I just hope it isn't from some contamination, as I stated before Hydrazine could be contaminated by the process that makes it. If the hydrazine was contaminated with chlorine and mixed with an oxidant that may give them a false positive. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I just hope it isn't from some contamination, as I stated before Hydrazine could be contaminated by the process that makes it. If the hydrazine was contaminated with chlorine and mixed with an oxidant that may give them a false positive. Posted by rlb2</DIV>They've said that their hydrazine was "pure" and free of byproducts from any manufaturing or contamination.  What's left after that is exhaust from the catalytic reaction.  AFAIK, there is no other material used in the monopropellant system besides hydrazine and the catalytic bed used to produce the somewhat "energetic"

reaction used to power the thrusters.  But, I don't have the specs of Aerojet's thrusters to look at.  More's the pity.

<div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

MeteorWayne · Aug 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Right.  I think there was an error.  Either Peter Smith misspoke or was misquoted.  That should be (IMHO) perchlorate-reducing rather than perchlorate-producing bacteria.  The perchlorate is produced by photochemical reactions in the environment, locking up energy from the sun that can later be released by organisms designed to use perchlorate as an energy source. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV> I wrote in my notes that he said "Some microbes use perchlorate as an energy source, others merely co-exist." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

rlb2 · Aug 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>They've said that their hydrazine was "pure" and free of byproducts from any manufaturing or contamination.  What's left after that is exhaust from the catalytic reaction.  AFAIK, there is no other material used in the monopropellant system besides hydrazine and the catalytic bed used to produce the somewhat "energetic"

reaction used to power the thrusters.  But, I don't have the specs of Aerojet's thrusters to look at.  More's the pity.

Posted by a_lost_packet_</DIV>That would be interesting because some processes use molten salts???Here is something from JPL.Perchlorate is an ion, or charged particle, that consists of an atom of chlorine surrounded by four oxygen atoms. It is an oxidant, that is, it can release oxygen, but it is not a powerful one. Perchlorates are found naturally on Earth at such places as Chile's hyper-arid Atacama Desert. The compounds are quite stable and do not destroy organic material under normal circumstances. Some microorganisms on Earth are fueled by processes that involve perchlorates, and some plants concentrate the substance. Perchlorates are also used in rocket fuel and fireworks. http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2008-155Very interesting - similar but somewhat opposite of nitrogen fixers. If the percholates evidence is not traceable to earth contaminates then this may be what they maybe thinking in the back of their minds - A ego system made out of microorganisms. Organics would have to be in the recipe if that was true. Still the most likely source as stated above is sunlight interaction...for now.Microorganisms are incredibly diverse and include bacteria, fungi, archaea, and protists, as well as some microscopic plants and animals such as plankton, and popularly-known animals such as the planarian and the amoeba. Many scientists would not include viruses and prions, which are often classified as non-livingMost microorganisms are single-celled, or unicellular, but some multicellular organisms are microscopic, while some unicellular protists, and bacteria called Thiomargarita namibiensis are visible to the naked eye. Microorganisms live in all parts of the biosphere where there is liquid water, including hot springs, on the ocean floor, high in the atmosphere and deep inside rocks within the Earth's crust. Microorganisms are critical to nutrient recycling in ecosystems as they act as decomposers. As some microorganisms can fix nitrogen, they are a vital part of the nitrogen cycle, and recent studies indicate that airborne microbes may play a role in precipitation and weather http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroorganismsNow to find Perchlorate thriving microoranisms on earth and what they look like nevertheless Thiomargarita namibiensis is an interesting bacterium in itself about the size of the object that appears to be moving around in the ice-worm movie I made from the phoenix microscopic imager???http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/microbiology/19337http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomargarita_namibiensis   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

Phoenix surface mission

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