Phoenix surface mission

CalliArcale · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Are there detectors of enough sensitivity to get enough data to give us a facsimile of "sound" from Mars?  A warbling tone might not be something worthy of a Grammy.  But, the air is pretty thin up there.  I don't know that we'd get much unless it was gusting fairly fierce. Posted by a_lost_packet_</DIV>There were microphones on Mars Polar Lander, I remember, but of course they didn't get the chance to hear anything (except perhaps "thud").  I wonder what they would've heard. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

3488 · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>3488,Thank you for the great updates and information about this mission. It is nice to  travel vicariously through the solar system.I was wondering if anyone might know anything about the MARDI microphone? I was disappointed that the microphone on MARDI could not be used (not that the mission isn’t exciting enough). I had hoped to actually "hear" Mars.However, I was wondering if the telltale on MET could be used as the basis of a sound simulation? I assume that the telltale oscillates at a given frequency based on the wind velocity as well as atmospheric density, local gravity, etc. Other factors causing the telltale to vibrate might be dust in the air as well as "warming" of METs materials in the sunlight. I realize MET isn’t really a wind-chime, but I am curious if these factors could be used in a synthesizer to create a "sound." I posted a note to both JPL and Planetary Society as well as MSS about this. I await a reply.MET on Mars*** Posted by Carrickagh</DIV>Hi Carrickagh,You can call me Andrew. Yes the microphone. Really it was meant to be used during the descent along with the MARDI (MARs Descent Imager) , they share the same circuitry. It was decided that as a wise precaution, the MARDI & by default, the Microphone would not be used, asthey could cause a daa overload & cause the onboard computer to misread the radar during the final descent.In all fairness, I think it WAS the correct decision. Of course, we do not know IF the MARDI & microphone could have caused Phoenix to crash or not. I suspect not, but I think it was wise to be cautious.However, the microphone could still be switched on. Not sure if much would be heard, in such a desperately thin atmosphere, approx the same as Earth's at approx 30 KM / 19 miles above sea level, I do not know how well sound travels through such a thin atmosphere.Having said that, I see no problem in switching the microphone on & having a listen, once all main mission objectives are completed.I agree totally, despite the few problems, Phoenix has been a real joy to follow, HAS been a huge success overall, have & still am enjoying this mission immensely. Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

dagas · Jul 28, 2008

I have a question....  as i read the news that a new technique will be used on sunday night, that means that despite this last failed attempt phoenix is attempting again to sample the martian soil right now?

MeteorWayne · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I have a question....  as i read the news that a new technique will be used on sunday night, that means that despite this last failed attempt phoenix is attempting again to sample the martian soil right now? Posted by dagas</DIV> That is correct. They think they understand the problem, and have modified the procedure to increase the chances for success. The good thing is the oven TEGA oven has a "full" indicator, so the oven will automatically close when it is full to prevent any ice sublimation, even before that full signal reaches earth more than 20 minutes later. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There were microphones on Mars Polar Lander, I remember, but of course they didn't get the chance to hear anything (except perhaps "thud").  I wonder what they would've heard. Posted by CalliArcale</DIV>ROFLhttp://www.tradebit.com/usr/big-fat-audio/pub/9003/Car-Crash-1--Lo-Fi-Preview-.mp3 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

thor06 · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>My comment was directed at all who were off topic, not you. Keep the thread on topic. Your response was just as off topic as his.  Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> No it was a reply to ME!Gottcha MW racism OK, off topic bad thx.  There are moderators who phrase and post such warnings in the correct manner  i.e. CalliArcale.  It is not your job, I was already mad, your post just made it worse. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

3488 · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There were microphones on Mars Polar Lander, I remember, but of course they didn't get the chance to hear anything (except perhaps "thud").  I wonder what they would've heard. Posted by CalliArcale</DIV>That is correct Calli.The second microphone paid for by The Planetary Society, is on Phoenix, a dupe of the one on the ill fated MPL. Because the failure of the MPL has never been satisfactorarily explained  (most like explanation, the descent thrusters shut down whilst MPL was still 40 metres from the surface, due to a faulty software package that misread an open switch, thinking the craft had landed, when in fact, it had not), but part of the suspicion WAS that the microphone & the MARDI were responsible in overloading MPL's computer, resulting in an early thruster shutdown.Really, we do not know, hence the MRO HiRISE team opening a campaign to search the HiRISE images of the MPL's expected landing ellipse for any evidence of the failed lander.Although Phoenix has landed successfully & safely, I for one would still like to know what happened to her older sister in the Martian Antarctic. THUD, I like that & that was most likely what happened. # Of course, perhaps there was no fault with MPL & the lander tipped over on a boulder or simply for some reason did not 'Phone Home' after landing!!!!!Just dunno, it's a real mystery. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/9/c339ae96-2210-4a90-b91c-c34bbebf516d.Medium.gif" alt="" /> Apparently there are rumours that there may be another  attempt at the exact same site. I really really hope so. Could you imagine, if it happens & lands successfully like Phoenix, that the first images show the crashed lander a short distance away??  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/15/5/bffe8c32-188c-48e9-a5dd-6a6c6ee311c3.Medium.gif" alt="" />Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I think you might be right as well, perhaps the rasping operation heats the scoop. In fact it's more likely than what I suggested.There doesn't appear to be any worry of all the ice sublimating away. It lasted in the scoop for a number of hours. I believe Andrew posted a sequence a page or so ago with timestamps. They intend to go from rasp to oven in less than an hour which should leave plenty of time. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>I suspect that is so Wayne.The rasping action is likely to cause heating as friction is used to force the sample from the ground. Also the vibration will shake the scoop. Once the rasping stops, then the sample will refreeze as a lump in the scoop.I think with further practice, they'll get it right. Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Having read the article, I got the same impression as you did MW although I thought some of the problem was that the scoop was "hot" due to the rasp operation.  Soil w/frozen water hit it and melted and then refroze to the scoop.  But in any case now I wonder how this will effect the sample delivered to TEGA.  If the water ice is being heated enough to melt the ice, presumably some of it will sublimate away before it refreezes.  What percentage is left I can't say but should TEGA fail to detect water in any appreciable amount then the science team is going to be left answering the question as to whether the water was ever there in the first place or lost in the collection.  My guess would be that this is somehow being thought about but it might make a good question to ask.  Someone knowledgable in heat transfer to soils could probably bound the size of the problem.  Here's a depiction of the rasp.    Posted by mee_n_mac</DIV>Hi mee_n_mac,Good point. In that pathetically thin atmosphere, any heating due to friction & vibration that Wayne mentioned could well sublimate some volatiles from the sample.This could compromise the readings. I am sure that the engineers are working on this & will think of something. I dunno if simply banging the scoop onto the icy regolith, so creating a few chippings, then delivering those to TEGA? Mind you that could be a bit risky???? Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

centsworth_II · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...despite this last failed attempt phoenix is attempting again to sample the martian soil right now? Posted by dagas</DIV>Looks like a second delivery has already been made according to the Planetary Society Blog. http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001574/http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001574/"There is no word yet on how this went, and not all the images have been downlinked yet, but there is one promising-looking photo that shows, at least, that there is more soil on top of the TEGA screen than there was on Saturday (see below)." <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/7/6/b7688d06-ead6-4a02-b604-3d5079018b3b.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Looks like a second delivery has already been made according to the Planetary Society Blog. http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001574/ Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>Cheers Centsworth_II.I had not long checked, so this update must be new. Looks quite successful, with only a little bit of sample caught in the mesh.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Cheers Centsworth_II.I had not long checked, so this update must be new. Looks quite successful, with only a little bit of sample caught in the mesh.Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV> But, not enough got through to fill the ovens, or the doors would have been closed, if I understand what they said about the procedure. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

centsworth_II · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>... the doors would have been closed... Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> The actual oven "door" is a tiny plunger that seals the oven shut and cannot be seen from the outside.  The large shutter doors on the outside are spring operated and remain open once opened. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The actual oven "door" is a tiny plunger that seals the oven shut and cannot be seen from the outside.  The large shutter doors on the outside are spring operated and remain open once opened. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV> D'oh! I knew that!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

centsworth_II · Jul 28, 2008

<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/12/9efc6080-d5bc-4adf-8c47-fdcf525b935f.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Here's a photo of the oven on the right and the sealing plunger on the left. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Here's a photo of the oven on the right and the sealing plunger on the left. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV> I see you had to stick in your centsworth, with photo of same <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif" border="0" alt="Laughing" title="Laughing" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

centsworth_II · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>....Looks quite successful, with only a little bit of sample caught in the mesh. Posted by 3488</DIV> I hope that's not because only a little fell onto the screen.  It's about time for some GOOD news! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

victo · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>But, not enough got through to fill the ovens, or the doors would have been closed, if I understand what they said about the procedure. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>I wonder what makes the "ice" to not sublimate from TEGA? Moreover if it sublimates and some "dirt" remains only threre, after a few tries, couldn't  it possibly fill the oven with "false" material instead of expected sience sample? vIC

centsworth_II · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I see you had to stick in your centsworth, with photo of same Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/1/e588bdec-ffd0-4c0b-b15c-804df96a9513.Medium.gif" alt="" width="73" height="73" />   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I wonder what makes the "ice" to not sublimate from TEGA? Posted by victo</DIV>The only thing to stop the sublimation is getting the oven door (plunger) shut. That is why they would love to rasp, collect and deliver a sample to the oven so the door can shut in the shortest time possible.  I don't know if there is any way for them to tell how much sample (if any) got into the oven on the first try and how much material in the oven is fresh, from this last delivery.  In any case, hopefully the oven got full and closed and analysis of material with SOME ice in it can begin.  Of course the team will put all their hard-earned knowledge to work trying to get a full oven of ice rich material into the next oven (looking ahead).   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Jul 28, 2008

Drat! "The team tried two methods over the weekend to pick up and deliver a sample of icy soil .... In both cases, most of the sample stuck inside the lander's inverted scoop. Images returned early Monday showed a small amount of soil reached the screened opening, but other data indicated that not enough had been funneled into the oven for beginning an analysis of the composition." http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/release.php?ArticleID=1808It looks like it's going to take a lot of (back to the blackboard) work and some more tries to get an ice sample into a TEGA oven.  That, along with not knowing how many TEGA shutters will open fully and potential short circuit trouble, is turning this into a real nail biter.   In spite of these troubles, the show goes on: "The team plans to keep gaining experience in handling the icy soil while continuing with other Phoenix studies of the soil and the atmosphere.Smith said, 'While we continue with determining the best way to get an icy sample, we intend to proceed with analyzing dry samples that we already know how to deliver. We are going to move forward with a dry soil sample'."  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Drat! "The team tried two methods over the weekend to pick up and deliver a sample of icy soil .... In both cases, most of the sample stuck inside the lander's inverted scoop. ....   Posted by centsworth_II</DIV> To paraphrase Sheriff Brody ... "I think we're going to need a bigger sample".  IF the problem is sticking soil due to heating and refreezing, I can see 2 choices ATM.  Either get a large enough sample so that if some sticks, enough will still go into TEGA or find a way to minmize the heating.  Given the time constraints and thin atmosphere I wonder if bringing the scoop into contact with the cold soil would cool the scoop off more rapidly (or more thoroughly in the given time) then simply leaving it to radiate away it's heat. So rasp the soil to get it scoop-able.  Stick the scoop into some spare dirt to cool it.  Wait.  Then scoop up the sample with the now cold scoop and deposit it over TEGA.  Rasp as required to shake loose the soil, taking into account the heating that will result. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

3488 · Jul 29, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>To paraphrase Sheriff Brody ... "I think we're going to need a bigger sample".  IF the problem is sticking soil due to heating and refreezing, I can see 2 choices ATM.  Either get a large enough sample so that if some sticks, enough will still go into TEGA or find a way to minmize the heating.  Given the time constraints and thin atmosphere I wonder if bringing the scoop into contact with the cold soil would cool the scoop off more rapidly (or more thoroughly in the given time) then simply leaving it to radiate away it's heat. So rasp the soil to get it scoop-able.  Stick the scoop into some spare dirt to cool it.  Wait.  Then scoop up the sample with the now cold scoop and deposit it over TEGA.  Rasp as required to shake loose the soil, taking into account the heating that will result. Posted by mee_n_mac</DIV>There appears to be a fundemental problem here regarding the delivery method with the type of samples available. I think one way may be to simply try & knock a few chips loose, using the scoop & deliver those to the TEGA. Unlike the Viking 1 & MERs sites in the tropics, or Viking 2 in the mid latitudes where the samples are dry, here ice is causing severe clogging, something we have not yet come across till now in Scandia Colles.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jul 29, 2008

Next Briefing: Thursday, July 31, 2 p.m. (Eastern) NASA and the University of Arizona, Tucson, will hold a media briefing Thurs., July 31, at 11 a.m. PDT (2 p.m. EDT), in the mission's Science Operations Center at the university. Briefing participants will discuss the latest progress by NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander in exploring a site in the Martian arctic. Following its May 25 landing, Phoenix has been studying whether Mars' environment ever has been favorable for microbial life. The briefing participants are: - Michael Meyer, chief scientist, Mars Exploration Program, NASA Headquarters, Washington - Peter Smith, Phoenix principal investigator, University of Arizona, Tucson - Victoria Hipkin, mission scientist for Phoenix Meteorological Station, Canadian Space Agency, Saint-Hubert, Quebec - Mark Lemmon, lead scientist for Phoenix Surface Stereo Imager, Texas A&M University, College Station <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jul 29, 2008

Cheers Wayne, I'll be watching.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

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