Russians walking on the moon by 2012!

[space_dreamer]

Ragnorak<br />Even with the might of the Soviet Union the Russians couldn't organise a heavy enough lifter. Even if their plans had worked they would have landed one man on the Moon. I very much doubt that Energia could organise a lunar programme. Their CEO should stop making an idiot of himself.<br /><br />They don’t need a heavy lifter for this plan just soyuz and proton rockets. Like the US plan to go to the moon using EELVs.<br /><br /><br /><br />breif<br />I think it is more likely that no-one will be walking on the moon in this century, if ever. It’s too expensive with little promise of a return on investment. I think, IMO, that the new administration in 2009 will study the VSE and all of manned spaceflight, see it in that light, and terminate the entire program.<br /><br />I agree there could be changes but in the face of competition from Russian and China the US won’t cancel the new moon program.<br /><br />I see two possible changes to the VSE from the next administration;<br /><br />The US will try to make the moon program much more International to keep Russia and China from getting to far ahead like it did with the International space station in the 80s and 90s, every body contributes know one gets to far ahead.<br /><br />or<br /><br />By 2009 will US feels threatened by the china being recognised by the rest of the world as a super power rivalling the US and also will want to re-promote it self to the world after the Iraq war. There could be a big budget increase for NASA so it can prove the US is still top dog!<br /><br /> josh_simonson<br /><br />Unlike the americans the russians don't really care much about useless space science such as cataloging the composition of the rings around uranus, so they won't engage in a major moon program unless they see something useful coming of it like resources, or perhaps for national prestige. Now that they're feeling a bit flush, it must be tempting for them to show that they're back in the saddle and still a major player.<br /><br />I

 

[barrykirk]

How is this for a possibility for short sightedness.<br /><br />The next administration cancels the VSE because it came from Bush.<br /><br />With the price of Oil soaring and Oil being Russia's major source of income, the Russians pump a huge amount of money into their moon program.<br /><br />A couple of years later, the administration, goes, whoops and restarts the VSE in catchup mode with the Chinese and the Russians.<br /><br /><br />I would be dissapointed if we do something this stupid, but I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[tap_sa]

<font color="yellow">"How they can support manned space flights while western 'richiest cousins' can not?"</font><br /><br />Because western aerospace engineer costs $100-150K per year while the Russian colleague works for pile of cabbage. Slightly exaggerated perhaps, but the cost difference <i>is</i> huge.

 

[tap_sa]

The ultimate combo would hiring Russian aerospace engineers, give them western quality materials to work with and all this with NASA size budget <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Heck we'd be sending people to Jupiter already if that were the case.<br /><br />Btw when will we see first Russian millionaire/billionaire reaching for the stars a la Musk/Besoz/Carmack? He/she would get excellent bang for his/hers rubles by tapping the cheap domestic know-how.

 

[space_dreamer]

There are now Russian 34 billionaires living Moscow, that’s more than any other city in the world! <br /><br />I would think that it’s only a matter of time before one of them decides that they want to walk on the moon!<br />

 

[space_dreamer]

The best sort of outcome would be the Russians providing the transport of people to and from the Luna surface relatively cheaply. The Americans providing the heavy lifter for cargo things like habitats, labs and mining equipment. Similar to what happens now with the ISS.<br />

 

[askold]

Best sort of outcome for whom? Not the US taxpayer.<br /><br />We build the place and the Russians make money turning it into a Club Med - like the ISS.

 

[rocketwatcher2001]

Photon-<br />With all due respect, please don't believe what you see reported about Americans. It's true that the media loves to show Americans as fat, lazy, and whiney.......only interested in stupid television shows like American Idol, but that isn't the real America, or the real Americans. If you want to see the American Pioneering Spirit just look at Osh Kosh or Sun-n-Fun or hundreds of other "fly-ins". There are more pilots and airplanes within 300 kilometers of my house than in all of Europe, Russia, China combined, and that includes all of the military aircraft in those countries. Many of these American airplanes are like my Cessna 152, which cost about as much as an average new car, mine cost me 21,300 dollars. I spent years in Europe and Asia, and there is nothing like that over there. This morning I took my son to the airport where I keep my Cessna, not to fly it, but to work on it, and there were lots of other fathers there with their kids. That spirit is alive and well, and the next generation will have it, too.<br /><br />Another non-aviation sign of American Pioneering Spirit is Lowes or Home Depot. Regular folks who are not affraid to build almost anything, I didn't see that in most other countries I've been to, at least not on that level that we have here.<br /><br />Getting back on topic, I'd love to see the Russians go to the Moon, I have a great deal of respect for your space program, but I don't see it going to the Moon anytime soon. I'd love to be wrong about that. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[egom]

rocketwatcher2001: "There are more pilots and airplanes within 300 kilometers of my house than in all of Europe, Russia, China combined, and that includes all of the military aircraft in those countries. Many of these American airplanes are like my Cessna 152, which cost about as much as an average new car, mine cost me 21,300 dollars. I spent years in Europe and Asia, and there is nothing like that over there."<br /><br />You know - after WW2 Junkers (they were making some famous planes) was not allowed to build planes anymore. There were building sewing machines instead. BMW was making plane engine too. They also got an interdiction to build plane engines. From what I know the only company that is building plane engines in Europe is Rolls Royce (there may be some more but they are the only one I know). The reasons for this are obvious.<br /><br />I do not want to get into politics, but because of the situation in Europe it was NOT allowed to build a plane at home (as in any conquered country). Only in 1989 when Europe won it's freedom things started to change - and believe me, they are changing rapidly. This is one of the reasons of the US fall rlatively to the peak of it's power.<br /><br />However competition is good - you will get out of this better than before.<br /><br />Moving to the point of this thread - Russia won't be a threat to US in the space program for at least 10 years. Yes, there will be evolutions of the current designs, but the russians do not want to put their money in space program - they have far greater problems than this. As I stated before they are practically rebuildign their country from scratch on the captilalist foundation. I live in Eastern Europe and we live in a pure liberal society: you are good at what you are doing you make lots of money, you are bad - you die of starvation. This way the resources go to the most fit business.<br /><br />EgoM

 

[mogster]

Posted by Space Dreamer......<br /><br />There space program coped through the hard times and is now well placed to pioneer space tourism. I watched a program on BBC4 the other day. On it was and the <br />third man to pay to go to the ISS (I forget his name) he said that he is I paying the Russians 100 million dollars to go on a fight around the moon! <br />.........................................................................................<br /><br />So its been confirmed that someone's stumping up the cash for the round the moon flight then. Excellent.<br /><br />From a touristy point of view I can't imagine that you'd be able to see much from a Soyuz.<br />

 

[rocketwatcher2001]

Ego-<br />There are lots of General Aviation airplane manufacturers in Europe, there just arn't too many General Aviation pilots. Many of the Europen airplanes get sold in the U.S........because that's where the market is. After WWII there were no restrictions on European Aviation impossed because of the war, the restrictions were all homegrown. The end of WWI was a different story. The Treaty of Versille was one of the most stupid acts of the 20th Century. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[nibb31]

Only Germany was prohibited from producing weapons after WW2, including military aircraft. This might have been the case for Italy too. The rest of western Europe, especially France and the UK have a quite succesfull aircraft industry, not just Airbus. <br /><br />The biggest aircraft motorists are Rolls Royce and Snecma, but there are other smaller ones.

 

[revolutionary]

Paying our aerospace scientists this much is a good thing... <br /><br />if they could pool together their resources, hire help, and use the money they make each year to re-invest into getting real aerospace work done, a lot could be accomplished. Instead, we seem them buying nice houses, cars, their own airplanes... sure this helps out those industries but really, they should be using the money to hire some metal workers, invest invest invest and invest in each other's projects.

 

[revolutionary]

i mean, really, do these guys need mansions and a fleet of high speed sports cars? why not just say... okay... 100,000/yr... lets try to live on 50,000 / yr and pool together the rest to build a really kick-ass spacecraft.

 

[josh_simonson]

And then get fired for conflict of interest with their employer....

 

[revolutionary]

Reforms are obviously needed, one such reform is that NASA should be allowed to receive "anonymous" donations.

 

[vt_hokie]

Whoa...I don't have time to go back and review all the posts, but what's this about aerospace engineers making $100k per year? I can tell you that Loral ain't paying me anywhere close to that!

 

[josh_simonson]

On the other hand, 100k/year gets you a small house and a honda in california...

 

[vogon13]

Russian's walking on the moon by 2012?<br /><br />If China takes them, perhaps . . . . . .<br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[mooware]

<font color="yellow">On the other hand, 100k/year gets you a small house and a honda in california... </font><br /><br />I don't think it gets you that much. On the East coast Either.

 

[john_316]

Again Russians walking on the moon in 2012.....<br /><br /><br />LOL OK! And I suppose I actually helped Bob Lazar reverse engineer UFO's at S-4 or was that actually G14.<br /><br />Anyways.....<br /><br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[vt_hokie]

Would it even be technically possible for them to design and build the necessary hardware by then even if money were no object?

 

[john_316]

You know they can design and the test the hardware with the proper funding. I imagine they could take the time and revive Energia with proper funding as well for the large booster they need. <br /><br />Question is though will they do that even if they could only build 3-4 rockets overall currently in the next 4-6 years?<br /><br />I seriously doubt they will until we at least reveal our CEV design and possibly delay it until our HLV design comes online. I think they will see where we are going with our proposed lunar deal and then follow suit. <br /><br />I imagine if it is true and we do go back to the moon by 2020 then Russia will revive energia or a new rocket program to keep pace because then we would have narrowed the field down technology wise to almost on par perhaps. But to see them jump out before us and do there own program means they would need to refocus and refinance the Energia assembly line and rehire those engineers and scientists that were layed off and they had to start that about two years ago. <br /><br />Does anyone know if they had a hiring spree in the last 2 years with their big rocket companies?<br /><br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />

 

[dragon04]

<font color="yellow">Would it even be technically possible for them to design and build the necessary hardware by then even if money were no object?</font><br /><br />We went from Mercury to the Moon in what.. 6 years? I'd say so. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[vt_hokie]

Could/would they use the Soyuz capsule mated with an upper stage and lander? There's really no room to move around in the Soyuz, right? To put it bluntly, basically the crew members in a Soyuz sit still and crap in a diaper for the entire 3 day trip to ISS, right?