SAVE CONSTELLATION

[EarthlingX]

Very on the topic article:
NASA and Space - The Future vs. the Past

John K. Strickland
Thursday, February 11, 2010
Under Admiral Craig Steidle starting early in 2004, the VSE was a forward looking program that was open to new ideas and the development of fundamentally new, innovative technology. Griffin shut the door firmly on most of those new ideas in 2005. Instead, he looked backward at what had been stolen away from him and the space community by politics 40 years ago - a continuation of the Apollo Program, and tried to re-create it as "Apollo on Steroids". Any studies which had been underway involving re-usable rockets or spacecraft were apparently ruthlessly suppressed, so that the public and most outside experts never got to see the results. Critical long-range programs were cancelled and their funds raided for the short-term goal. Everything that possibly could be made expendable to save a few pennies was. MIT Aeronautics and Astronautics professor David Mindell says in a Space and Earth article posted on physorg (2-5-2010) that "NASA is eating its seed corn for Constellation". The result was exactly what I warned about in 2005 (Return to the Moon p. 137 - 2005) - the use of "giant expendable LEMS" (Lunar Modules) in the new program, itself only symptomatic of NASA's institutional mindset under Griffin.

 

[EarthlingX]

And another :
NASA moon plan was an illusion, wrapped in denial

20:50 11 February 2010 by Henry Spencer
NASA's Constellation programme, which was going to fly manned capsules to the International Space Station in (maybe) 2015, to the moon in (maybe) 2020, and to Mars someday, is dead. Some people are mourning it. I'm not.

 

[jakethesnake]

NASA cancels KSC contract leading to charge “Obama broke law”

Let the battle begin…

One thing that is becoming glaringly obvious is that Obama does not understand what is meant by “Separation of Powers”… It looks as if Obama believes that his authority as the President of the United States of America overrides that of the Judicial and Legislative branches of government.

What Obama doesn’t seem to get is that his authority is neither greater nor less than the Legislative or Judicial branches of the government, they are equal i.e. “Seperation of Powers” and with 27 bipartisan members of Congress weighing in on the side of Constellation it looks to be a real battle and another wake up call for Mr. Obama.

This man is seemingly beyond reproach, and he didn’t get it when he tried to shove a nationalized heath care systems down our throat, or when he disrespected the Supreme Court in front of the entire country during his State of the Union address.


A copy of the letter to Charles Bolden from Congress can be found here.

http://www.floridatoday.com/content/blo ... 5-2010.pdf


From the Orlando Sentinel

NASA cancels KSC contract leading to charge “Obama broke law”

NASA on Friday cancelled its solicitation for the next generation ground services contract for Kennedy Space Center, leading to accusations that President Barack Obama broke the law.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_s ... ponse.html


From the Orlando Sentinel

Reps tells NASA’s Bolden: “Stop damaging Constellation”

A group of 27 members of Congress, mainly Republican representatives from Alabama and Texas, two states with major NASA centers, wrote a letter Friday to NASA chief Charlie Bolden, demanding that he agree to cease any activity that could be construed as damaging to the Constellation moon program.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_s ... ation.html


From Spacenews.com

NASA Warned Against Constellation Stoppage

Two dozen members of the U.S. House of Representatives are warning NASA Administrator Charles Bolden not to shut down any part of the Constellation program this year, citing a provision included in a 2010 omnibus spending bill that bars the agency from terminating any part of the space shuttle replacement effort without formal congressional approval.
“We have become aware of the formation by NASA Headquarters of at least five ‘tiger teams,’ the job of which is to shut down Constellation and transition to the new program,” states a Feb. 12 letter to Bolden spearheaded by Rep. Pete Olson (R-Texas) and signed by 19 other Republicans and four Democrats.

The letter also instructs Bolden to reinstate an unspecified “major contract related to Ares 1” that was put on hold Jan. 23, adding that any disruption to Constellation contracts will be viewed as a program termination.

From Floridatoday.com

Legislators Allege NASA, Obama In Violation Of Law

WASHINGTON, DC -- Congressman Bill Posey (R-Rockledge) released the following statement in response to the Obama Administration's notice today that it is cancelling Kennedy Space Center's Exploration Ground Launch Services (EGLS) contract:

"Administration's unilateral decision to cancel contracts associated with the Constellation program, absent Congressional consent is a direct violation of the law and of Congressional intent," said Congressman Posey.

http://www.floridatoday.com/content/blo ... a-in.shtml

 

[nimbus]

[Self-serving] law

 

[EarthlingX]

So, this is no more technology or business discussion ?

Politics has the last word ?

 

[jakethesnake]

[Self-serving] law

Be it as it may…

It’s not over until it's over…

I have been so busy the last couple of days that this morning was the fist time I had a chance to address this post, the first order of the day for me was to answer Byeman comments.

I don’t see them anywhere and I’m assuming that they were deleted, so does anyone remember if even vaguely what Byeman’s comments and or questions were?

Was really looking forward to reading them…

 

[jakethesnake]

So, this is no more technology or business discussion ?

Politics has the last word ?

Sure it does, but the title of this post is “Save Constellation” and that encompasses more than just technology and or bussiness…

 

[nimbus]

You'd already replied to a few. If his posts were deleted, he most certainly was in fact Jimfromnsf.
All that's left is
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=22561&start=60#p425911
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=22561&start=60#p425913

You can easily find his arguments at the NSF forums (posted under username Jim) where you'll also find some die hard pro-constellation company.

 

[jakethesnake]

Thanks nimbus,

My bet is that there will be some haggling back and forth between the White House and Congress and some bastardized version will come into play… Neither Constellation nor the Presidents non-Vision… tantamount to the Nationalized Heath Care abomination that is going on now…

Also, I can’t remember a time when a President changed NASA’s course without so much as a peep…

And this certainly is not a small course change to say the least!

 

[menellom]

So, this is no more technology or business discussion ?

Politics has the last word ?

Sure it does, but the title of this post is “Save Constellation” and that encompasses more than just technology and or bussiness…

So in other word's you're trying to have your cake and eat it too - you post stupid political arguments while the rest of us talk technology and business... apparently just enough for the thread not to have already been moved.

This thread is in SPACE BUSINESS AND TECHNOLOGY. Either make a sound, rational argument as to why Constellation should be saved, within the context of this particular subforum, or move this to politics.

 

[jakethesnake]

So, this is no more technology or business discussion ?

Politics has the last word ?

Sure it does, but the title of this post is “Save Constellation” and that encompasses more than just technology and or bussiness…

So in other word's you're trying to have your cake and eat it too - you post stupid political arguments while the rest of us talk technology and business... apparently just enough for the thread not to have already been moved.

This thread is in SPACE BUSINESS AND TECHNOLOGY. Either make a sound, rational argument as to why Constellation should be saved, within the context of this particular subforum, or move this to politics.

Hey… go back and read what I wrote…

I am definitely up to snuff to hang with you with half my brain tied behind my back!

Also, if you can’t see that Constellation hangs in the balance of the politicians purse strings then your high ground insult lends itself more in your direction than mine.

WOW… does you pic do you justice… it depicts you perfectly.

Why don’t you take your childish insults to some other post!

 

[EarthlingX]

There is one more thing to be said about it, and i think it is in the heart of that Congress letter:
- technical teams

If NASA could start companies, maybe even profit from them, that would be a solution, but is probably heresy and politics.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Since it is the OP who is making it a political thread, there may be a relocation soon....

 

[jakethesnake]

Since it is the OP who is making it a political thread, there may be a relocation soon....

I’m actually kind of surprised you would say that MW, because politics most certainly come into play here.

Also, I would think you would be more concerned with the insults than the dynamics of Constelation???

 

[jakethesnake]

To clarify “Saving Constellation”… there is no way to separate NASA and politics. The saving or cancelation of Constellation is and will be determined by several things.

1. Is the technology viable? (Technology)
2. Is the technology affordable? (Business)
3. Does Congress want to keep or scrap it? (Politics)

Can’t really get away from this…

 

[MeteorWayne]

I realize that jake, but when you bring in a purely political link (remember, the program has been underfunded since it's inception, most of which was in the Bush years) then I am left with a poor impression.

I'll go and reread it....

 

[EarthlingX]

Hey… go back and read what I wrote…

I am definitely up to snuff to hang with you with half my brain tied behind my back!

Also, if you can’t see that Constellation hangs in the balance of the politicians purse strings then your high ground insult lends itself more in your direction than mine.

WOW… does you pic do you justice… it depicts you perfectly.

Why don’t you take your childish insults to some other post!

Unfortunately, i did.

What exactly was that offended you ? I see you are very objective about it ..

Here's the link you forgot, it looked almost not-political :
NASA Warned Against Constellation Stoppage

By Space News Staff

Two dozen members of the U.S. House of Representatives are warning NASA Administrator Charles Bolden not to shut down any part of the Constellation program this year, citing a provision included in a 2010 omnibus spending bill that bars the agency from terminating any part of the space shuttle replacement effort without formal congressional approval.

 

[Jacksonjr0458]

That video is my featured video on youtube.

 

[Jacksonjr0458]

Re: SAVE CONTSTELLATION

Say, hypothetically, Obama's proposal is completely blocked and Constellation continues on exactly as it has been...

1. The shuttle will still retire at the end of the year.
2. NASA will still have to rent seats on the Soyuz.
3. Ares I still won't be flying until 2016, 2017, maybe even 2018
4. Ares V still won't even start development until 2020.
5. NASA still won't be capable of landing on the Moon by 2020.

Explain to me why you think this is the right decision?

Because it is the one good decision. All of those steps you listed were already known when the program started. Sure, we ride soyuz for a few years, but with Obama's plan we ride with someone else (private companies) forever. Until Ares V is ready we still have access to space and can even do manned orbital recon of the moon without the lander.

 

[Jacksonjr0458]

I realize that jake, but when you bring in a purely political link (remember, the program has been underfunded since it's inception, most of which was in the Bush years) then I am left with a poor impression.

I'll go and reread it....

Just stop, "Bush did it all." Yes, in a way, but cancellation can be avoided. Step A: Just fund it better!

 

[menellom]

Just stop, "Bush did it all." Yes, in a way, but cancellation can be avoided. Step A: Just fund it better!

But that's the problem - all this 'save Constellation' talk is based on the assumption that if Congress chooses Constellation, it'll also choose to drastically increase NASA's funding. That's simply not gonna happen.

 

[Jacksonjr0458]

Just stop, "Bush did it all." Yes, in a way, but cancellation can be avoided. Step A: Just fund it better!

But that's the problem - all this 'save Constellation' talk is based on the assumption that if Congress chooses Constellation, it'll also choose to drastically increase NASA's funding. That's simply not gonna happen.

If it is restarted it will be. Obama's only choice then will be to fund it, if he can't get rid of it.

 

[menellom]

Just stop, "Bush did it all." Yes, in a way, but cancellation can be avoided. Step A: Just fund it better!

But that's the problem - all this 'save Constellation' talk is based on the assumption that if Congress chooses Constellation, it'll also choose to drastically increase NASA's funding. That's simply not gonna happen.

If it is restarted it will be.

Based on what? Congress is suddenly going to be suddenly overcome by Carl Sagan syndrome and throw an extra $3-5 billion dollars a year at NASA? They haven't approved a budget increase on that scale in 25 years! What makes you think that will change?

 

[gawin]

The constellation program is and will be political. One of the reasons it was based of 1 large SRB had not so much to do about science as it did about jobs. The SRB and its refurbishment employs tons of people from many states. All these states have congressmen who control budgets. Take a look at a partial list of who makes what just for the SRB

prime contractor, ATK Launch System's Wasatch Division based in Brigham City, Utah.
United Space Alliance's Solid Rocket Booster Element division, SRB assembly, checkout and refurbishment for all non-solid-rocket-motor components and for SRB integration.
Parker-Abex Corp. of Kalamazoo, Michigan (hydraulic pumps)
Aerojet of Redmond, Washington (hydrazine gas generators)
Arde Inc. of Mahwah, New Jersey (hydrazine fuel supply modules)
Arkwin Industries Inc. of Westbury, New York (hydraulic reservoirs)
Aydin Vector Division of Newtown, Pennsylvania (integrated electronic assemblies)
Bendix Corp. of Teterboro, New Jersey (integrated electronic assemblies)
Consolidated Controls Corp. of El Segundo, California (hydrazine)
Eldec Corp. of Lynnwood, Washington (integrated electronic assemblies)
Explosive Technology of Fairfield, California (CDF manifolds)
Gaco Western of Seattle, Washington (Hypalon Paint)
Lockheed Martin (formerly Martin Marietta) of Denver, Colorado (pyro initiator controllers)
Moog Inc. of East Aurora, New York (servoactuators, fuel isolation valves)
Motorola of Scottsdale, Arizona (range safety receivers)
Pioneer Parachute Co. of Manchester, Connecticut (parachutes)
Sperry Rand Flight Systems of Phoenix, Arizona (multiplexers / demultiplexers)
Teledyne of Lewisburg, Tennessee (location aid transmitters)
ATK Launch Systems Corp. of Brigham City, Utah (separation motors)
Hamilton Sundstrand of Rockford, Illinois (auxiliary power units)
VACCO Industries of So. El Monte, CA (safe and arm device)
Voss Industries of Cleveland, OH (SRB Retention Bands)

Look at how many states benefit from this one single program. Also some of the strongest voting states NY, CA, NJ. Penn.

Every govt program no matter how big or small is political. It boils down to how many people (voters) can we keep happy.

My personal opinion is that constellation needs to go. I know a lot of jobs will be lost but a lot of civilian jobs for all the new up and coming private companies should help fill in the gaps. I also look back at other technologies and see when we had some of the most advances were when we had competition. We got more bang for the buck and advanced much faster then you would have with out it.

 

[Jacksonjr0458]

Based on what? Congress is suddenly going to be suddenly overcome by Carl Sagan syndrome and throw an extra $3-5 billion dollars a year at NASA? They haven't approved a budget increase on that scale in 25 years! What makes you think that will change?[/quote]

If they choose to save it, they will choose to fund it better. Otherwise, why bother?