Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars / New Phoenix Lander results

JonClarke · Jun 4, 2006

It's important to distinguish between structures formed during deposition and those formed during weathreing. And sometimes it can be hard. Dessication cracks form from the drying out of mud during trhe depositional process - like the clay pan photo you showed. It is certainly possible that such textures do exist in the Burns Formation at Meridiani, one would expect them although I haven't seen any good examples yet. The abundant growths of sulphate in the seidment may have destroyed them, although the preservation of ripple cross lamination means that fine textures can be preserved. Dirt cracking occurs dueing weather. Fine sediment, or soi gets into rocks and wedges them open. It is a progressive process with ever finer and small cracks developing. As a result of dirt cracking the bedrock blocks are pushed apart and tilted. By justification for suggesting that the Meridiani features are the result of dirt cracking rather than desication is because they 1) are cross cut primary depositional fabrics, and 2) are filled by the surface soil, not by the sediment. Hope this helps Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

rlb2 · Jun 19, 2006

Hope this helps Thanks. I know we talked about this before several times but it makes me wonder how accurate mini-TESS is for finding water. It is still questionable in my mind trying to accept everything that I am seeing as dry powder? 2P201204656EL5M1.5 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

JonClarke · Jun 19, 2006

My relatively limited experience of IR spectroscopy of soils that that the various water absorbtion bands are so strong that even 3-5% moisture will leave a very strong signal. This is in soils that are to all visual appearences dry or almost so. My understanding is that ice would have the same effect. For your delectation I attach an image of a terrestrial analogue to your recent image of cracking at Meridiani. It is of sand-filled dirt cracks in flat lying spring limestone in Australia. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

rlb2 · Jun 23, 2006

Thanks for that summation and visual contribution from the Australian outback. Here are some more images from the Martian way-outback. 1P203641155EL5M1.5 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

JonClarke · Jun 23, 2006

Interesting idea, but I think you will find that Gusev and Meridiani are too warm for frozen CO2. But there may be all sorts of odd textures from this process closer to the poles were CO2 does freeze out. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Jun 23, 2006

Hmm. Liquid CO2 is a good solvent, I believe, and used increasingly as an insyrtial cleaner. But you need high pressure for that. No liquids, nothing goes into solution. Ammonia to my knowledge, has not been detected on Mars, so would be present in vanishingly small amounts. Besides, the triple point is 195.40 K (−77.75 C) 6.07 kPa compared with 273.16 K (0.01 °C) and 611.73 pascals for water. So you would need atmospheric pressures 10 X present on Mars to get liquid ammonia, if there was any present. I think the deep ground temperature at Gusev and Meridiani is ~-70, still too warm for dry ice (though still darn cold!). Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

rlb2 · Jun 25, 2006

1P202933958EL5M1.95 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

silylene old · Jun 25, 2006

This article is for rlb2: <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />The Last Time It Rained Yungay Field Notes, Day 1 June 23, 2006 by Henry Bortman <..snip... /> Yungay, and the Atacama in general, is the very definition of dry. And yet, as I flew to Antofagasta from Santiago yesterday, over vast barren stretches of desert landscape, I could see out the window of the plane what appeared to be runoff channels on many of the mountains and hills I was flying over. Confusing, I thought. I had read that in the driest part of this desert it almost never rains. That's why scientists come here. I kept waiting for the plane to cross the arid heart of the Atacama, which I knew must be somewhere long my path. I kept waiting for the runoff channels to disappear. They never did. I made a note to myself to ask one of the scientists about this. <..snip... /> Even in the Rock Garden, there were clear signs of water: runoff channels on the nearby hills, cracked mud in a few low-lying places. I asked around, "How recently did it rain here?" No one could say. "Within the last year," one scientist suggested. "It could have been a few years, 10 years, 40 years. No-one knows," said another. "Could it have been a hundred years, a thousand?" I ask. "We just don't know. "You'd have to ask the locals." Rain is a big event here. Even so, no one may have been around to witness it. But it was clear that, at some point in the past, the entire hillside where people were working had been soaked. Not soaked the way a long drenching rain soaks the forest. More like a flash flood. It is the desert, after all. The last time there was a rainstorm in the Rock Garden, it was a quick event, over within hours, perhaps only minutes, and water streamed down the hill in a sheet, barely penetrating the surface. Obvious signs were everywhere. The runoff channels were easy to see. They exhibited all the classic signs: t</blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

JonClarke · Jun 26, 2006

Nice article. Good to see Peny Boston in action, she is a great researcher. Pity though it did not show the dimples. They sound like solution hollows along pycolines. Anatolia was part of a series of cracks in the ground, and not hugely remarkable. There were what looked like collapse pits on the way from Endurance that it would have been nice to look at, but perhaps it's just as well. From experience it is the pretty outrcrops and craters that we learn the most from, so I have no real objection to the rush of getting there. If the rovers stopped to look at everything someone had found interesting we would not have got anywhere. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Jun 26, 2006

I would very much doubt that liquid water could exist on Mars now (has done in the distant past though). Surely even if liquid water could exist in simulated Martian laboratory conditions, would the lack of a Martian magnetosphere & almost non-existant atmosphere, break any H2O down into its constituent atoms (Hydrogen & Oxygen) then leak away into space, due to the 38% of Earth surface gravity? The 'Dimples' I thought were explained by dust devils touching down?? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

silylene old · Jun 26, 2006

There is another nice thread on the microcraters if you search back. It looks like many of the microcraters are secondary or tertiary impact craters (formed by a stone being thrown from another cratering event). Some of the other microcraters look like they might have formed by subsidence of soils into a crack or fault, or perhaps even subsidence of a sublimed fossil ice nodule embedded in a dune. Other concepts such as lightning or dustdevils have been suggested, but they seem unlikely. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

JonClarke · Jun 26, 2006

The absence of a magnetic field explain while the atmosphere ihas been eroded over time. But this does not preclude the preence of surface moisture. I would say its a given that there is episodic moisture on the surface anwhere the surface where the pressure is above the triple point. The presence of ground fogs and surface frosts supports this. I don't think the dust devils make dimples. None of the ones I have seen up close have done this ( I had one go past a couple of metres away last 2 weeks ago), and the dimples are too small anyway. It also make be worth noting in passing that dust devils don't touch down. They are not tornadoes reaching down from the clouds. Rather they start at ground level and build up. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

rlb2 · Jun 27, 2006

The dimples weren't everywhere, and they weren't distributed randomly. They occurred in chains that traced the land's contour down the hillside, Great story. Here is a fairly recent indentation in the soil. Dont know if its a crater like or a dimple, see top left inset image. 41 new full-size images at: http://members.cox.net/mars.images/index.htm or go to: http://arrow-space-innovations.com/_wsn/page5.html to get to the links of over 1000 more images. 2P201645856EL5M1.555 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Jul 1, 2006

1P200268364EP2590L5M1.7 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Jul 1, 2006

Was there life on Mars? Shiny rock coating may hold the answer The research, published in the July edition of the journal Geology, reveals that the dark coating known as desert varnish creates a record of life around it, by binding traces of DNA, amino acids and other organic compounds to desert rocks. Samples of Martian desert varnish could therefore show whether there has been life on Mars at any stage over the last 4.5 billion years. The source of desert varnish has intrigued scientists since the mid nineteenth century The researchers hope that these results will encourage any future Mars Sample Return mission to add desert varnish to its Martian shopping list. Dr Perry said: "If silica exists in varnish-like coatings in Martian deserts or caves, then it may entomb ancient microbes or chemical signatures of previous life there, too. Desert varnish forms over tens of thousands of years and the deepest, oldest layers in the varnish may have formed in very different conditions to the shallowest, youngest layer. "These lustrous chroniclers of the local surroundings can provide a window back in time. Martian desert varnish would contain a fascinating chronology of the Martian setting," he added. http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=20237 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Aug 4, 2006

1P207725783EL5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

JonClarke · Aug 5, 2006

Great idea. Viking did a series looking at moistening thr ground and tracking its behaviour. Phoenix will do similar things. The idea is to look at chemical reactivity and gas exchange processes that result from moistening soil materials. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

rlb2 · Aug 8, 2006

Would it be a dumb idea to bring a series of small water samples on a future Mars probe? As Jon said - Great idea. The best place to test this out is its natural environment. Too bad they didn't have a piggy back probe on one of the rovers to do just that. If a brine solution could make it in that environment then it would make a stronger case for life on mars today. Imagine a briny pond on mars that the explorers could easily tap into for there water supplies. They could place some local mined salt on top of some water ice then though a black tarp over it to soak up the sun allowing it to melt the ice and turn the solid into a liquid that would be easily mined for water, air to breath and rocket fuel. The explorers could harvest protein from some brine shrimp which can survive up to 25 percent salt content or other salt loving sea creatures. Sure the brine fish may be wasted fish bait on earth but on mars they would be a perfect extremphile for the first farming settlers. A good place to start is in a low lying higher air density areas of Mars such as Hellas where the extrapolated atmosphere is twice as dense as where the rovers are today. Hellas may have an even better chance of having briny ponds today if we can just find a warm spot. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

JonClarke · Aug 8, 2006

"The best place to test this out is its natural environment. Too bad they didn't have a piggy back probe on one of the rovers to do just that. " It's not possible to do everything on one mission. Like I said, it's already been done, so unless it can be done better there isn't much point. And it will be done better with Phoenix which launches in less than a year's time. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

rlb2 · Aug 8, 2006

Phoenix is a good thing; do you know where they are going to land in the northern polar region? Hint - take a few ounces of brine made with local known solution of salts found on Mars then expose it to the atmosphere, its kind of an insurance policy if you dont land in an area where you can dig for water ice. http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/ Below is an idea I had right after Viking landed that I just rendered from an image at Oppys site with the Viking lander. I thought eventually landers would be able to walk on Mars, not for a great distance but just around the landing site. You would think by this time we could do this. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

JonClarke · Aug 8, 2006

Apparently it has, and without much fanfare either - 67.5º N and 240º E (Scandia Colles). http://planetary.chem.tufts.edu/Phoenix/landing_site_selection.htm There is an image of typical surfaces on the project home page as well http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/ I assume that this is all subject to final checking of the site using MRO for unexpected hazards. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

rlb2 · Aug 9, 2006

That’s good news notice the elevation close to - 3,500 m, that’s 1.5 times the air density of the MER rovers and over 1000 m below anything else they ever sent to Mars. If they find a warm spot hope they don't land in a brine pond; however landing next to one will be great. Watch the water vapor readings in the atmosphere go way up. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

JonClarke · Aug 9, 2006

Do you know at what part of the northern hemisphere seasonal cycle Phoenix is landing? Is it goiung to be early, mid or late spring, early or mid summer? Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Aug 9, 2006

Jon Clarke, I can find out. I have the Martian seasonal dates @ home. In response to: Jon Clarke: Apparently it has, and without much fanfare either - 67.5º N and 240º E (Scandia Colles). Wow I hope that this site will be confirmed. The images of the area linked to your post look fantastically interesting. Definate Permafrost. No doubt. It would be good for the 2001 Mars Odyssey to scan the area in infrared to guage the minerology & surface temperatures of the landing site. Also I think that the JPL should ask ESA to image the area with the HRSC on board the Mars Express orbiter for a high resolution 3D survey. The more info before launch, higher the chances of success. Thank you for posting the co-ordinates & landing site (I will load it on my Redshift later as I often visit the landing sites of the landers & Martian features to see what skies they are under & what Astronomy is happenning on Mars). Please lets hope that there will be no repeat of the Mars Polar Lander fiasco. 67.5 Degrees north is only about as far north as the Martian Arctic Circle. They would need to land Mars Phoenix as close as possible to the Martian Summer Solstice, to get the most out of the mission, unless the lander has a secondary power supply. If so it could last, well into the Martian Autumn (Fall). Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

rlb2 · Aug 9, 2006

Do you know at what part of the northern hemisphere seasonal cycle Phoenix is landing? I can't find it, I hope it is at the beginning of summer, summer season last 6 months on Mars. Here is a image I extracted from THEMIS http://themis.asu.edu/mars-bin/webmap.pl?clat=67.6171875&clon=240.05466050000243&res=5&psz=0&fgrnd=0&bgrnd=1&day_night=0&cookie=0&rel=0 according to the coordinates it would be somewhere in the middle and to the right of the image below. I sharpened, darkened and added contrast + color to the image below. Note: If you look closely at the enlarged image of the image below you can see shadows coming from the same side of the small white dots in the image. The shadows from the other darker mounds are going the other way. Are the white dots new small craters or do they have height - ice geysers??? I Can’t wait until the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter starts taking up close and personal images at Phoenix's proposed landing site. THEMIS number V11588002 note it overlaps with V10652008 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars / New Phoenix Lander results

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