Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars / New Phoenix Lander results

[nexus555]

I know this is a bit off topic. Also, this information may have been discussed before, or actually tested on mars so cut me some slack.<br /><br />If my memory serves me correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong, didn't they do tests in the north pole, where they shove a long, skinny hollow metal rod into the ice/snow (way below 0 temperatures) and tested the ice and found living micro organisms/bacteria in the frozen samples?<br /><br />If this is true, couldn't they land a rover on one of the ice caps of mars, and do this exact process using a rover? The sample could be stored in the rover in some freezing chamber, to insure that the frozen ice does not melt.<br /><br />The sample could then either be analyised on the rover (not sure if that is possible) or somehow launched back to earth for scientific analysis at home. Or this kind of mission could be saved for the future manned mission to mars.<br /><br />What do you guys think?

 

[JonClarke]

The idea has been about since 1976. See this abstract for one example. <br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">didn't they do tests in the north pole, where they shove a long, skinny hollow metal rod into the ice/snow (way below 0 temperatures) and tested the ice and found living micro organisms/bacteria in the frozen samples?<font color="white"><br /><br />Here is what I found on that.<br /><br />http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/biology/people/faculty/rogers/FinalReport.pdf<br /><br />http://science.nasa.gov/NEWHOME/headlines/ast27jul99_1.htm<br /><br />More interesting stuff from search at The Mars Society website<br /><br />Link<br /><font color="orange">A new type of organism discovered in an Arctic tunnel came to life in the lab after being frozen for 32,000 years. <br /><br />The deep-freeze bacteria could point to new methods of cryogenics, and they are the sort of biology scientists say might exist on Mars and other planets and moons.<br />"The existence of microorganisms in these harsh environments suggests -- but does not promise -- that we might one day discover similar life forms in the glaciers or permafrost of Mars or in the ice crust and oceans of Jupiter’s moon Europa," said Richard Hoover, an astrobiologist at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center.<font color="white"><br /><br />http://www</safety_wrapper</font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

The other halve of the above enlarged image:<br /><br />1P214479670EL5M1.5 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

1P217579670EL5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="yellow">NASA Schedules Briefing to Announce Significant Find on Mars<br /><br />WASHINGTON - NASA hosts a news briefing at 1 p.m. EST, Wednesday, Dec. 6, to present new science results from the Mars Global Surveyor. The briefing will take place in the NASA Headquarters auditorium located at 300 E Street, S.W. in Washington and carried live on NASA Television and www.nasa.gov.<br /><br />http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2006/dec/HQ_M06186_Mars_Briefing.html<br /><br /><font color="orange">Keep an eye out for NASA’s new Mars announcement. The buzz here in Houston at a Space Exploration conference is that years of photo snaps by the recently-lost Mars Global Surveyor has picked up a <font color="yellow">gullywasher of a finding.<font color="orange"><br /><br />“Stay tuned,” advised NASA’s Colleen Hartman, Science Mission Directorate Deputy Associate Administrator. A new view of Mars is forthcoming, she said.<br />“One thing for sure…it just keeps refusing to read our textbooks,” Hartman explained.<br /><br />Author Leonard David<font color="orange"><br /><br />http://www.livescience.com/blogs/2006/12/<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Aviation Week Exclusive: Water Spotted on Surface of Mars"<font color="orange"><br /><br />According to an item first posted by Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine: "NASA is ready to announce major new findings about the presence of water currently emerging onto the surface of Mars.<br /><br />If confirmed, this would increase the possibility that microbial life could have existed recently or possibly exists now on the Martian surface. The potential seepage of ground water onto or near the surface has been a key area of investigation by the Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft (AW&ST Nov. 27, pp. 53-55).<br /><br />http</safety_wrapper</font></font></font></font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[robnissen]

I have a question related to the forthcoming press conference (and assuming we know what the press conference is about): <br /><br />Is there ANYWHERE on earth where there is liquid water, but there is ABSOLUTELY no life? I think the answer is no, but I am not sure.

 

[bonzelite]

many of the pics with paver type of stones look as if the regolith between them is wet or damp, like a clay. it appears that if one were to work this material with the hands that it would stick together and be maleable. like a mud clod.

 

[CalliArcale]

Devil's advocate here: it could be a material that behaves like the lunar regolith, which clumps almost like damp clay but is bone dry. Still, if it's water.... Well, there's a thread over in M&L about possible liquid water on Mars and somebody made the point that the only thing cooler would be three-toed footprints. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> So here's hoping! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

to me that looks like some liquid seeped out there where those "paver type of stones" are and make no mistake about that<br /><br />I'd say most people are simply over-archingly-carefull, basically untill we will have fountains springing and rivers flowing and recorded on video will most people admit the evidence of liquid but they will be overcarefull before that happens and deny and deny and deny and bring forth all kinds of excuses that is it not liquid and much less that it is water (they may be right in this later case), nobody wants to burn their fingers or egos and nobody has enough confidence in their judgement to say the king is naked<br /><br />while lunar regolith clumps, it doesn't look wet in absence of footprints or wheel prints, on the other hand the 'paving stone' area does most definitely look wet without being disturbed with foot or wheel marks showing that wet clumping<br /><br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">Is there ANYWHERE on earth where there is liquid water, but there is ABSOLUTELY no life? I think the answer is no, but I am not sure.<font color="white"><br /><br />I'm not sure either; I think some extremely acidic or salty places may not have life, the great Salt Lake in Utah is highly saline but brine shrimp makes there home there??<br /><br /><font color="orange">Un-hatched brine shrimp are metabolically inactive and can remain in total stasis for several years while in dry oxygen-free conditions, even at temperatures below freezing. This characteristic is called Cryptobiosis meaning "hidden life" (also called Diapause). Once placed in water, the cyst-like eggs hatch within a few hours, and will grow to a mature length of around one cm on average. Brine shrimp have a biological life cycle of one year. This short life span, and other characteristics such as their ability to remain dormant for long periods, have made them invaluable in scientific research, including space experiments.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brine_shrimp<br /><br />2P219398657EL5M1</font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Even hyperthermophiles curl of their cilia above 150 degrees, so the hotter seafloor springs and subteranean hydrothermal systems are sterile. of course the sea floor springs support abundant life once they cool down, which they do rapidly.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[silylene old]

<font color="yellow">Is there ANYWHERE on earth where there is liquid water, but there is ABSOLUTELY no life? I think the answer is no, but I am not sure.</font><br /><br />I know you were thinking of environmental water. But it got me to thinking, and I came up with one example: The urine of a healthy mammal is completely sterile. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

Van: <br />while lunar regolith clumps, it doesn't look wet in absence of footprints or wheel prints, on the other hand the 'paving stone' area does most definitely look wet without being disturbed with foot or wheel marks showing that wet clumping <br /><br />bonz: that's what i see, too. <br /><br />mars is not the moon. and with the mounting evidence of the gully water, i'm almost conviced by what i see that the martian ground can be at least damp in areas, particularly if the water source is subsurface and constantly percolating up to the surface, then subliming. <br /><br />martian geothermal activity on the surface may not involve yellowstone park type of bubbling springs of hot mud and pools of water, but, instead, reveal areas of perpetual wetness and sublimation ( />>???<<) with occasional sudden eruptions of water jetting.

 

[rlb2]

Tardigrades are interesting creature that may be able to live on Mars; I have been interested in them for years since first finding out how adaptable they were.<br /><br /><font color="orange">Tardigrades occur over the whole world, from the high Himalaya (above 6000 m) to the deep sea (below 4000 m) and from the polar regions to the equator. Many species can be found in a milder environment like lakes, ponds and meadows, while others can be found in stone walls and roofs. Basically, all tardigrades need to do is remain moist in order to be active. They are therefore most common in moist environments.<br /><br />Several species regularly survive in a dehydrated state for nearly 10 years. Depending on the environment they may enter this state via anhydrobiosis, cryobiosis, osmobiosis or anoxybiosis. While in this state their metabolism lowers to less than 0.01% of what is normal and their water content can drop to 1% of normal. Their ability to remain desiccated for such a long period is largely dependent on the high levels of the non-reducing sugar trehalose, which protects their membranes.<br /><br />Tardigrades have been known to withstand the following extremes whilst in this state:<br />• Temperature—Tardigrades can survive being heated for a few minutes to 151 °C or being chilled for days at -272.8 °C (almost absolute zero). <br />• Radiation— Shown by Raul M. May from the University of Paris, Tardigrades can withstand 5700 grays or 570,000 rads of x-ray radiation. (Five grays or 500 rads would be fatal to a human). <br />• Pressure—They can withstand the extremely low pressure of a vacuum and also very high pressures, many times greater than atmospheric pressure. It has recently been proven that they can survive in the vacuum of space<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrades <font color="white"><br /><br />I wonder if anyone tried to do experiments with them in a Martian type environment??<br /><br></br></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[shiva_enigma]

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[rlb2]

1P219532881EL5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[keermalec]

I beleive it is now established that there IS current water activity on mars:<br /><br />http://www.planetary.org/news/2006/1206_Mars_Global_Surveyor_Discovers_Current.html<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>“An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.” John F. Kennedy</em></p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">I beleive it is now established that there IS current water activity on mars:<font color="white"><br /><br />Imagine what they may find with MRO in some hot spots at the bottom of Hellas Basin, a 2,100 km diameter, 9000 meter hole in the ground, where the atmosphere is twice as dense as it is at Opportunity and Spirit sites...<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Hellas Impact Basin<br /><br />The depth of the crater (6 to 7 km[1] (3.7 to 4.3 miles) below the topographic datum, or "sea level" of Mars) explains the atmospheric pressure at the bottom: 1155 Pa[1] (11.55 mbar) (.34375 InHG). This is 89% higher than the pressure at the topographical datum (610 Pa, or 6.1 mbar or .18 InHG). The pressure is high enough that water is speculated to be present in its liquid phase at temperatures slightly above 0 °C (32 F).<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_Planitia<br /><br /><font color="white">I was spitting and moaning about this when this board started after Mars Global Surveyor established its true depth....Now they are finally starting to recognize the potential......<br /><br />__________________________________________________________<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Allan Trieman - Martian Sulfates as Recorder of Atmospheric-Fluid-Rock Interactions (Workshop/Meeting Report)<br /><br />Sulfates arise not only from volcanism but also from a variety of interactions. Sulfates can also form from biotic influences.<br />Sulfates are abundant on the surface of Mars. CRISM shows sulfates in a geologic context - at crest of dunes. Other spacecraft have observed them as well.<br /><br />Sulfates associated with life in extreme conditions in terrestrial environments such as caves, fumaroles, mine drainage sites.<br /><br />Terrestrial sulfates (jarosites) are used as environmental probes on Earth. <br /><br />http://www.nas</font></font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

Here is one of those things that help re-enforce some of us opinions after yelling about the idea of the past atmosphere being frozen in time below its surface of which the thicker atmosphere only comes intermittently off and on throughout the red planets history. MRO may confirm these findings even more by helping unwrap today’s secrets that are being uncovered by the rovers and orbiting instruments; good science is starting to verify the obvious…<br /><br />A new model of Mars is evolving before our eyes… <br /><br /><font color="orange">Mars' Missing Air Might Just be Hiding<br /><br />Rather than having had its air knocked out into space, Mars might just be holding its breath.<br /><br />New findings suggests the missing atmosphere of Mars might be locked up in hidden reservoirs on the planet, rather than having been chafed away by billions of years' worth of solar winds as previously thought.<br /><br />Combining two years of observations by the European Space Agency’s Mars Express spacecraft, researchers determined that Mars is currently losing only about 20 grams of air per second into space.<br /><br />Extrapolating this measurement back over 3.5 billion years, they estimate that only a small fraction, 0.2 to 4 millibars, of carbon dioxide and a few centimeters of water could have been lost to solar winds during that timeframe. (A bar is a unit for measuring pressure; Earth’s atmospheric pressure is about 1 bar.)<br /><br />According to the "warm and wet early Mars" model, liquid water once flowed on the red planet’s surface. Evidence from channels and gullies recently spotted on Mars suggest the water layer might have been more than half a mile deep in places. For Mars to keep that much water in liquid form, the planet must have had a much higher atmospheric temperature, which scientists think was made possible by a strong greenhouse effect in the planet’s past.<br /><br />Mars' atmosphere must have been between 1 to 5 bars to maintain that kind of greenhouse effect, scienti</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

1P223527159EL5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

1P225388224EL5M1.9 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Mars has clams!! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">Mars has clams!!<font color="white"><br /><br />Ha..<br /><br />I posted the wrong image, I circled the rocks and the holes where they may have came from for my own reference - It appears to me as if the small rounded opening areas expelled some layered rocks with some kind of force, possible artesian alluvial flow (seepage), to create the rounded cave-like entrance.<br /><br />Remember seepage not in brine form would be very explosive on Mars due to the 7 millibar pressure (earth 1013 miilibar at 1 atm.), rockets get an extra boost from this effect when they get near the vacuum of space....<br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">Groundwater once bubbled up from beneath the surface of Mars to form transient, shallow pools before evaporating and leaving behind thick layers of salty minerals, a new computer model suggests.<br /><br />The new model provides an alternative explanation for sulphate-rich “evaporite” deposits discovered on Mars’ Meridiani Planum, hailed by some scientists as the desiccated remains of an ancient ocean covering the planet’s Northern Plains.<br /><br />“It turned out that Meridiani was one of the few regions on the planet where the model actually predicts ground water to reach the surface and evaporate,” Andrews-Hanna told SPACE.com.<br /><br />“What this work does is show that Meridiani Planum is unusually suited to being a place where groundwater would emerge, evaporate away and produce the kinds of deposits that we see,” Squyres, who was not involved in the study, added.<br /><br />The new model doesn’t preclude the existence of a vast ocean once covering a significant part of Mars — it just suggests it didn’t extend to Meridiani.<br /><br />“This is separate from the issue of there ever having been a global ocean,” Squyres said. “What this says is Meridiani is a likely place for the emergence of groundwater.”<br /><font color="white"><br /><br />Is it still bubbling up.....<br /><br />http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17504113/<br /><br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>