Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars / New Phoenix Lander results

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">I'd feel a little better about the new theory of subsurface "veins" of groundwater transport if they could point out what other part of Mars had the salts to match what we see at Meridiani.<font color="white"><br /><br />We speculated here about the salt deposits on Columbia Hills for about 1 year now - see image below this one that I posted on this thread 03/26/06 12:39 PM; finally some more information just came out on its composition. Here is something about The Columbia Hills just off the wire today - 14 March 2007 05:26 pm ET from Space.com. <br /><br /><font color="yellow">Scientists are puzzling over new Mars rover data that reveal soil packed with sulfur and traces of water. The finding could be evidence of an evaporated spring or volcanic deposits from ancient gas vents.<br /><br />While digging around in Mars’ Columbia Hills last year, NASA’s Spirit rover unearthed bright white and yellow material hidden beneath a layer of normal reddish soil. The material is sulfur-rich and consists of sulfate salts associated with iron and possibly even calcium.<br /><br />“These salts could have been concentrated by hydrothermal liquid or vapor moving through the local rocks,” said Albert Yen, a geochemist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and a rover science team member.<br /><br />Researchers are currently on the lookout for more patches of bright soil. Where they find it could provide clues about its origins. “If we find them along fractures, that would suggest they were deposited at ancient vents,” said Ray Arvidson of Washington University and deputy principal investigator of the rover mission.<br /><br />“If they are saddles between hills, that would suggest the deposits formed where groundwater came to the surface,” Arvidson said.<br /><br />http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/070314_mars_soil.html<br /><font color="white"><br />2P223659921EL5M1</font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

2P196320532EL5M1_7 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[silylene old]

rlb2: I remember your speculations well on the salts we kept finding under the soils. You can't be right too soon! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[voyagerwsh]

Magnesium sulfate salts or epsom-like salts to suggest that Mars was soaked with brine water in the past.

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">I remember your speculations well on the salts we kept finding under the soils.<font color="white"><br /><br />Thanks. <br /><br />With the new data from above the rovers added to the data from the South Polar Region just posted I think we are in for a new model of Mars that finally will make since out it all. <br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">I' not sure one can relate what is seen at Meridiani to Gusev.<font color="white"><br /><br />There are different set of rules that apply to different location on Mars just as they do on Earth.<br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">Magnesium sulfate salts or epsom-like salts to suggest that Mars was soaked with brine water in the past.<font color="white"><br /><br />We only scratched the surface, curious what the composition of the soil is at Spirit Site???? If there is an absents of Na, Cl, and Mg then the 4th most abundant salt soluble in water that is in sea water on earth is sulfates. <br /><br />There is a lot of NA, Cl, Mg on Mars at the Pathfinder site so Magnesium Sulfate Heptahydrate (Epsom Salts) can make up a large part of the sulfate that they are talking about, which leaves this question - how does sulfate salts react with water in a high iron concentrating surface material environment? See two images down for an image on Earth that has an high iron content in the alluvial type flow???<br /><br />Right now the salty tracks do appear to be composed from a volcanic eruption type origin if you count the nearby volcanic rocks, possibly geothermal vents but the big piece of the puzzle found on the Hills is trace amounts of water???</font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

Wow.<br /><br />Here is some more information from the link you provided.<br /><br /><font color="orange">This map shows the thickness of the south polar layered deposits of Mars. The radar data indicate that the deposit, larger than Texas in area, is more than 2.3 miles (3.7 kilometers) thick in places, and that the material consists of nearly pure water ice with only a small component of dust.<br /> View related photos<br /><br />“This is the first time that a ground-penetrating system has ever been used on Mars,” said the new radar study’s lead author, Jeffrey Plaut of NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory. “All the other instruments used to study the surface of Mars in the past really have only been sensitive to what occurs at the very surface.”<br /><br />The reflected beams revealed that 90 percent or more of the frozen polar material is pure water ice, sprinkled with dust particles. <font color="yellow">The scientists calculated that the water would form a 36-foot-deep ocean of sorts if spread over the Martian globe. <font color="white"><br /><br />Another source:<br /><br />http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=22125 <br /><br /><font color="yellow">Some of the new information even hints at the possible existence of a thin layer of liquid water at the base of the deposits.<br /><br /><font color="orange">Radar observations made in late 2005 and early 2006 provided the data on the south pole, and similar observations were taken of the north pole in the past several months, Plaut said.<br /><br />Plaut, part of an international team of two dozen scientists, said a preliminary look at this data indicated the ice deposits in at the north pole are comparable to those at the south pole.<br /><br />http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/03/16/mars.water.reut/index.html</font></font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

How does sulfate salts react with water in a high iron concentrating environment???<br /><br />Image below is from an iron rich river bed on Earth... <br /><br />Image taken by a unknown source from Wikipedia identified as <br /><br />IronInRocksMakeRiverRed.5 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange"><br />Gasp! Even Martian dirt points to water<br /><br />A patch of Martian soil kicked up and analyzed by Spirit appears to be rich in silica, which suggests it would have required water to produce.<br /> <br />Chemical analysis performed by the science instruments mounted on the rover's robotic arm measured a composition of about 90 percent pure silica — a material commonly found in quartz on Earth — for the bit of Martian dirt, said mission scientists, who first heard of the find during a teleconference.<br /><br />"You could hear people gasp in astonishment," said Steve Squyres, principal investigator for NASA's twin Spirit and Opportunity rovers at Cornell University in Ithaca, N.Y. "This is a remarkable discovery."<br /><br />Draggin' the line<br /><br />This discovery came about unexpectedly as the result of a mechanical failure.<br /> <br />Both Spirit and its twin rover Opportunity completed their original three-month missions in April 2004, and are aging. One of Spirit's six wheels no longer rotates, gouging a deep impression as it drags through soil. That scraping has exposed several patches of bright soil, leading to some of Spirit's biggest discoveries at its Gusev Crater exploration site, including the most recent find.<br /><br />"We've looked at dozens of disturbed soil targets in the rover tracks, and this is the first one that shows a high silica signature," said Steve Ruff of Arizona State University in Tempe, <font color="yellow">who first proposed using Spirit's thermal emission spectrometer to study the overturned soil's mineral composition last month.<font color="orange"><br /><br />Heart of glass<br /><br />The silica readings in the overturned soil prompted mission managers to drive Spirit close enough to touch the soil with the rover's alpha particle X-ray spectrometer. Silica commonly occurs on Earth as the mineral quartz, and is the main component of window glass, NASA said. The Martian silica at the Gertrude Weise patch is non-crystalli</font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[robnissen]

It appears to be beyond question, that there was water in Mars' past. The one question that I don't believe has been answered is whether, there was standing water over millions of years, or merely flooding over thousands of years. Do any of the geologists here (Jon?) know if this silica evidence helps to answer this question one way or the other.

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">It appears to be beyond question, that there was water in Mars' past.<font color="white"><br /><br />What bothers me from the highlighted quote from above <font color="yellow">who first proposed using Spirit's thermal emission spectrometer to study the overturned soil's mineral composition last month<font color="white"> is - Wow it took them all this time to turn the spectro on to analyze the exposed soil in the rover tracks - if true (which I find hard to believe) then what were they doing all of this time....<br /><br />Baby steps - baby steps. <br /><br />Scientist are closer to the point of admitting today that there were not only standing water in the Martian past over 3 billion years ago, which they would never have admitted too before the MER rovers, but standing water in its recent past. Scientist today are now hypostasizing that they may even be standing water in the lower denser atmospheric areas of Mars today in the form of brine, water gushing out of exposed gullies, aquifers - lakes and rivers under the Martian surface, and even standing water under the frozen ice at the poles. What a difference ten years makes....<br /><br />Misquoting the scientific prophet <font color="yellow">Carl Sagan <font color="white"> - we have found a lot more scientific <font color="yellow">extra-ordinary evidence <font color="white">to prove water once flowed freely on Mars which support what we were seeing with past telescopes for hundreds of years. <br /><br />The best word to describe this is Duhhhhhhhhh….<br /><br />When I first started posting on this board in the late 90's I brought up many time the importance of looking for life past and or present on Mars. I had a lot of flamers then towing the acceptable line at that time constantly harassing me; a lot of them have since changed their colors. What a difference ten years makes...<br /><br />Rocks are great but can we now look for past and or present <font color="yellow">* extra-ordinary evidence<font color="white"> of life on</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

2P233074414EL5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

1P233205068EL5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

If it looks like muck, it tastes like muck, it smells like muck then it is muck. We have the looks, we have the taste - kind of, in the forms of salts, all we need is the smell - <font color="orange">Silica-Rich Soil Found? <font color="white">My initial question was how good is the Mini-TES for detecting water vapor or water ice currently on Mars in the soil. I would say not very well some of that may be due to the loss of the external calibrated part in the Mini-TES to help calibrate the instrument. <br /><br />Here is one way that I got there, Mars atmosphere during the daytime is way under-saturated with water - very dry, drier than any of Earths deserts, however at night time it is oversaturated with water vapor???<br /><br />____________________________________________________________________<br /><br /><font color="orange">PRESS RELEASE<br />Date Released: Thursday, June 14, 2007<br />Source: Ames Research Center<br /><br />MOFFETT FIELD, Calif. - NASA-funded astrobiologists at the University of California, Berkeley have discovered evidence supporting the presence of large oceans of liquid water on early Mars. <br /><br />One of the most obvious surface features on Mars is a large plain surrounding the north pole that resembles a sediment-filled ocean basin with shoreline-like features. But the purported shoreline isn't level, an observation that has been used as an argument against the presence of an ocean. This new study shows that the undulations can be explained by movement of Mars' spin axis, and thus its poles, and that a liquid water ocean could indeed have existed there. The scientists' research is scheduled to be published in the June 14 issue of Nature magazine. <br /><br />"This work strongly supports the idea that there were large standing bodies of water on the Martian surface," said Carl Pilcher, director of the NASA Astrobiology Institute at NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif., which co-funded the study. "Interpreting this topography as an ancient nor</font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

A view of Mars as it might have appeared with an ocean filling the lowland basin that now occupies the north polar region.<br /><br />http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/06/14/mars.oceans.reut/index.html<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">Ancient DNA boosts hope for alien life<br />Researchers see signs that microbes in permafrost could repair themselves <br /><br />Ancient bacteria can survive nearly half a million years in the harsh, frozen conditions of the Arctic and Antarctic, researchers said Monday in a study that suggests life could exist in Martian permafrost or ice-covered oceans on alien worlds.<br /><br />The findings come just weeks after some of the same researchers reported recovering DNA more than a mile beneath Greenland's icy surface. The University of Copenhagen's Eske Willerslev, who was the principal researcher for both studies, said the latest find represents the oldest independently authenticated DNA to date obtained from living cells.<br /><br />Willerslev said the DNA discoveries could offer clues to better understand aging — and point to the best places to look for traces of alien life as well. “When it can live half a million years on Earth, it makes it very promising it could survive on Mars for a very long time,†Willerslev said. “Permafrost would be an excellent place to look for life on Mars.â€<br /><br />http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20468872/<br /><br /></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[arkady]

Yes, very interesting. I linked an article on this in another thread in this section.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "<font color="#0000ff"><em>The choice is the Universe, or nothing</em> ... </font>" - H.G Wells </div>

 

[rlb2]

Just posted from Space.com paper presented to Nature<br /><br /><font color="orange">Wobbles in the rotation of Mars swung the planet into about 40 extreme ice ages in the past 5 million years and allowed thick ice layers to remain far away from the poles, an astronomer says. <br /><br />Various spacecraft have revealed evidence for ice ages on Mars. Around 4 million to 5 million years ago, precipitation events sent piles of snow and ice that accumulated around the ice caps. Nowadays, the only visible ice on Mars is the pair of polar caps. But in recent years, orbiting probes have found solid evidence for vast sheets of underground ice near the red planet's equator, at what scientists call mid-latitudes<br /><br />When the Phoenix Lander spacecraft arrives at Mars, which is expected in 2008 and will land in the Martian north polar region, Schörghofer expects it will "see" the abundant and layered ice forms.<br /><br />http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/070912_mars_ice.html<br /><br />Credit: University of Hawaii<br /></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[franontanaya]

Do you think that in places like this subimage there could be thin layers of liquid?<br /><br />Subimage<br />http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_003728_0930<br /><br />Dark particles from the edges of the round features seem to have been diluted through the smooth low surface. When I saw it first at 1:16 I almost thought it was reflecting the sky, but at 1:1 it looks like fresh clay. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[exoscientist]

Fran, do you know if this is correct positive/negative relief showing here with that central peak. I mean is that actually a depression?<br /><br /> Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi Bob,<br /><br />It is definately a peak. That is quite an image. <br /><br />Approx 87 degrees & 42' South, I would expect any clay to be frozen, unless <br />extremely saline.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[franontanaya]

Do'h!<br /><br />But anyway, everybody on Earth knows water can stay liquid under a thin layer of ice, so those, lets say, ideal calcium chloride brines (-50ºC) could defrost once by the lens effect of ice cristals during a martian "hot" day, for example, and accumulate under a layer of ice that protects it from evaporating and frosting too fast... upper ice would contain less salt than lower layers, and so it wouldn't defrost when the more briny layer does.<br /><br />You can make fire with ice lenses so, why wouldn't natural lenses heat briny water over -50ºC? Martian sunlight isn't filtered by a thick UV dispersing atmosphere, anyway... <br /><br />Edit: Sorry if I'm a bit too late to this topic. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">Do you think that in places like this subimage there could be thin layers of liquid?<font color="white"><br /><br />Yes I would think that its s very likely a seasonal thing going on there.<br /><br />That is a very interesting image since it is in the high latitude close to the South Pole. I would be interested in what time of the Martian year they were in when they took that image, if in the south polar summer / autumn time then I would guess that it is a seasonal thing that may be due to dry ice (CO2) sublimation, with lower level water ice sheets melting – what’s under that ice? <br /><br />In the image objects as small as 74 cm across can be detected, which is phenomenally close considering how far up they were when they took that image.<br /><br />__________________________________________________________<br /><br />Here is another little mystery, see image below, notice what appears to be old wheel tracks before dust storm in the background and new wheel tracks after dust storm. If this is not an illusion and is a normal case of weathering on Mars from global dust storms then the history of the surface of the planet should be revised, the catering model for Mars is flawed; the craters may be much younger than recently modeled -<br /><br />Notice I couldn't download image....</font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

You can find the image mentioned above with over 48 more up to date images at my new Domain web site Shine Innovations - green energy + aerospace will carry over Arrow Space Innovations domain from other service provider. I have a lot more space at new site, I can download over 1000 full color resolution images once it is all up and running. <br /><br />http://shineinnovations.com/new_page_8.htm<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>