Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars / New Phoenix Lander results

3488 · Jun 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi folks - again.  I did get my old screen name back. I'm working on my website to eventually downlink thousands of my Spirit and Opportunity full resolution color images as a dedicated reference. When I get that up and running I will provide a link to it here and other places. Be gentle on me and other places that post color images because all monitors aren't calibrated the same therefore all color images will not appear as the poster presented..   Here is an image from the latest Phoenix shovel test in color. These images don't post very big, I didn't think I would every say this but I miss the old way. The original Phoenix color image was oversaturated; I sharpened it and toned it down a bit.  http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=1698&cID=36 lg_1698  Posted by rlb2</DIV>Great to see you again rlb2. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/11/c8b6deb7-da19-4cdf-8b77-f73cf35e4954.Medium.gif" alt="" />MeteorWayne is correct, I too can hardly read what you have written.Regarding images, I have been linking Back to images uploaded onto either Imageshack or Photodump, more recently Photodump as imageshack was becoming unreliable & becoming more spammy with adverts.I really, really hope that you can do your magic on the Phoenix images as you do with the MERs. Phoenix is like a family member to me almost, as I was part of the campaign, to not allow the mission to remain in the cancelled bin, aka museum exhibit, after the Mars Surveyor 2001 mission (now Phoenix) was cancelled in May 2000, following the loss of the MPL in December 1999. So this mission has a deep personal significance to me. Phoenix is not just another Mars mission, I helped make it happen. MER B Opportunity was also threatened, but NASA quickly reversed that decision & allowed her to join MER A Spirit on Mars (I was to have joined that campaign had it started, but NASA saw sense in that case). Anyway, its great to see you again.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 3, 2008

Let me second that. Great to see you back as rlb2!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

rlb2 · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Whoa, could you edit the font size on your reply? Even with my glasses, I can't read that Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Thanks MeteorWayne I will go back and try to fix it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I really, really hope that you can do your magic on the Phoenix images as you do with the MERs. Phoenix is like a family member to me almost, as I was part of the campaign, to not allow the mission to remain in the cancelled bin, aka museum exhibit, </DIV>Thanks Andrew, I'll see what I can do. In the mean time keep up the good work yourself.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Jun 4, 2008

Here is a new color one I put together from the raw filter images of the shovels marks in the soil. 237987main_RBM1.5 <img style="width:297px;height:272px" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/4/80dca69d-a672-4d01-94bd-20614e4fb434.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="467" height="347" /> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/15/397e0229-b499-4970-aff0-931031734747.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

abq_farside · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Here is a new color one I put together from the raw filter images of the shovels marks in the soil. 237987main_RBM1.5   Posted by rlb2</DIV> Great to see you back rlb2 - looking forward to your great images. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Don't let who you are keep you from becoming who you want to be! </div>

rlb2 · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Great to see you back rlb2 - looking forward to your great images. Posted by abq_farside</DIV>Thanks here is something of interest for the Phoenix folks.A team of Penn State scientists has discovered a new ultra-small species of bacteria that has survived for more than 120,000 years within the ice of a Greenland glacier at a depth of nearly two miles. The microorganism's ability to persist in this low-temperature, high-pressure, reduced-oxygen, and nutrient-poor habitat makes it particularly useful for studying how life, in general, can survive in a variety of extreme environments on Earth and possibly elsewhere in the solar system.  http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25571 <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/14/e86398d5-7b0c-4ff3-9ea1-33810f45bd87.Medium.jpg" alt="" />   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Jun 5, 2008

Here are some interesting particles from the Phoenix lander. I did sharpen it a bit and added contrast.The color composite image on the right was acquired by the Optical Microscope, a part of the Microscopy, Electrochemistry, and Conductivity Analyzer (MECA) instrument suite on NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander.  the microscope images them. Blow-ups of four of the larger particles are shown in the center. These particles range in size from about 30 microns to 150 microns (from about one one-thousandth of an inch to six one-thousandths of an inch). http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/press/OM3_05JUN08_mhh.htmlOne of the tiny grains shown in the pictures, taken largely to test the lander's instruments, was clear and whitish but the scientists said it was a mineral — possibly salt -- and not likely ice, which they are eager to find as it is considered key to enabling life on the planet.Other particles were reddish brown like the Mars surface or dark and glossy.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24993984/ <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/12/66b1852a-58ab-497d-bc69-54bdb2b9fc42.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="316" height="198" /> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/15/06328661-b5b4-403a-8f74-188df200059d.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="424" height="301" /> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/15/1a48ff8c-184c-4ffc-af70-5f5dceec57b2.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="379" height="231" /> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/1/23b83ae5-b7b3-4e8a-a18b-6d64dc8964ef.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="379" height="249" />This one I overexposed. <img style="width:262px;height:193px" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/8/34b36351-b903-4e71-88a1-caf332d2298e.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="331" height="244" />    <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Jun 6, 2008

Here is another color image just released of phoenix shovel. The original color hue was out of balance, it wasn't oversaturated this time. That is easy to do when someone creates a color image in one computer that isn't calibrated with another and they even did it the right way but when they transfer it to another computer and the color calibration is not the same. Also a different computer model monitor can get a different hue balance therefore a different look.  One thing I notice about this shovel full is that it appears to have a high concentration of sulfur in it.       <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/9/99a3e45d-29e8-4e51-b9d8-6248adf54a69.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="362" height="225" />  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Jun 9, 2008

In this news release is some clumpy soil that they can't blame on talcum powder of course this is the place you may expect clumpy soil. As I stated from the beginning of this thread, borrowed from a scientist talking about the pathfinder, Sojourner, wheel tracks. "If it looks like muck, tracks like muck and smells like muck then it must be muck." They blamed that on fine granular material."I think it's the cloddiness of the soil and not having enough fine granular material," said Ray Arvidson of Washington University in St. Louis, the Phoenix team's science lead for Saturday and digging czar for the mission. Now finally we get to smell the muck and remove all doubt.<span style="color

urple">http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20080607.html Here is a stitched color image I developed from the raw images just released. <img style="width:327px;height:215px" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/12/a3c8ba41-ba55-4f57-bc6f-b8cb389ba85e.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="420" height="263" />  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

michaelmozina · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>this is the mac daddy thesis statement: " Actually, I think it's a hypersensitive, almost paralyzing caution; classic fear of ostracism and it's consequent detrimental effects upon one's scientific reputation, which can have negative effects upon acceptance for publication, grants and attainment of tenured positions...... making what might be seen professionally as an extreme claim tantamount to career suicide." this is exactly why experts seem continually vague about many of their official press releases. they have become politically adept at saying a lot of mumblemouthing and prattling on about nothing. you can read a recent release and you have not really come off from it knowing any more than before you read the report. spacedaily.com is full of such breaking news reports that really don't say much. i mean, all of them are not b.s. by any means or even vague, but a good many, too many, are. the thing is, this image on this page or above is so absolutely obvious to me, and i am an idiot layperson. it is blaringly clear and i don't know why they don't or didn't examine that further with the rovers. why?!! they were right there!! why didn't the @$%@%% rover dig a little trech over and analyze it?!! they go millions of miles and they just roll away from it?!! "follow the water" is starting to be like crying wolf. i am snoring and bored with their apparent aloofness and disaffected attitude. if they did dig there and i do not know, then pardon me. but if they did not, then.... well. i can't say what i want to on here. calli will be all over me. Posted by bonzelite</DIV>I can't say that I'm not a skeptic of a lot of what goes on in astronomy theory, but the Mars missions (all planetary missions) seem like great science from my perspective.  I don't think any of us understand all the details that go into planning and executing these missions, nor do I understand all the reasons they don't do things I might personally like to see them do, but I'm always impressed with these real science missions.   Even if they were to discover that there is no water and no life on Mars, we will still have learned something in that process.  I'm more than willing to give NASA and other agencies the time and funding they need to research this issue and other planetary issues because they are interesting and they do tell us about the universe around us.I tend to agree with Jon that you're missing the idea when they are saying follow the water.  They're simply looking in the most likely places where they might find water and doing it on seriously hamstrung budget that has many other "priorities".  As skeptical as I might be toward some beliefs in astronomy, I'm quite satisified with how my tax dollars are allocated as it relates to Mars and learning about it's environment, and I'm impressed with the scientific informoation these missions return.   As it relates the informaion we gather, anything we learn is useful.  Learning that something isn't there can be just as important as learning that it does exist there.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

michaelmozina · Jun 9, 2008

Thanks rlb2 for posting the fantastic images.  I'm trying to catch up on this thread, but what I've read and seen thus far has been very enlightening.  It will be interesting to see how the Martian year has an effect on the equipment.  I wonder if we'll get to see it snow on Mars?

<div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

silylene old · Jun 10, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>In this news release is some clumpy soil that they can't blame on talcum powder of course this is the place you may expect clumpy soil. As I stated from the beginning of this thread, borrowed from a scientist talking about the pathfinder, Sojourner, wheel tracks. "If it looks like muck, tracks like muck and smells like muck then it must be muck." They blamed that on fine granular material."I think it's the cloddiness of the soil and not having enough fine granular material," said Ray Arvidson of Washington University in St. Louis, the Phoenix team's science lead for Saturday and digging czar for the mission. Now finally we get to smell the muck and remove all doubt.  Posted by rlb2</DIV>Hello rlb2,My guess is that the soil is VERY clumpy.  If you take a salt-rich powder  (consider for example, imagine a mixture of Epsom salts and fine dirt), and subject it to a water/CO2 ice every winter, and then sublime the water/CO2 away, and repeat for millenia, you will get clumps, held together by salt crusts.Ice, while a solid, actually always has a surface layer (several nm thick) of liquid water.  There have been several great papers on this subject in the last decade in the chemistry journals.  [this is why ice skating works, but that is another subject].  My guess is that salts in the soil, probably highly concentrated salts in the soil, dissolve into the liquid water surface layer on the ice crystal surfaces during the Martian winter.  Then when the ice sublimes away in the Martian spring, the salts crystallize out.  This gradually forms clumps and adhesions between dust and soil particles.In fact, in the scoop of soil, you can see chunks of white something, which my guess are highly concentrated salts.  In fact, I would not be at all surprised if the white material uncovered under the lander is actually a layer of rather hard salt crust, just below the looser soil.  I think that the annual cycles of ice forming and subliming would concentrate the salts, and ultimately exclude the salts from the bulk ices to form a salt crust.   Maybe the salt crust is only a couple cm thick (?).  Probably purer ice is under the salt-crust layer.  That was my impression when I first saw it.  I think that wind-born dusts and light soils scatter on top of the salt-crust layer to give a soil layer a couple cm thick above that we see.   The clumpiness and crustiness should have been expected and predicted from a soil that goes through annual cycles of ice deposition and sublimation.  In fact, these cycles could be duplicated rather easily in the lab, and this would be a good exploratory study to see the effects on soil clumping and salt transport. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

bearack · Jun 10, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>In this news release is some clumpy soil that they can't blame on talcum powder of course this is the place you may expect clumpy soil. As I stated from the beginning of this thread, borrowed from a scientist talking about the pathfinder, Sojourner, wheel tracks. "If it looks like muck, tracks like muck and smells like muck then it must be muck." They blamed that on fine granular material."I think it's the cloddiness of the soil and not having enough fine granular material," said Ray Arvidson of Washington University in St. Louis, the Phoenix team's science lead for Saturday and digging czar for the mission. Now finally we get to smell the muck and remove all doubt.http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20080607.html Here is a stitched color image I developed from the raw images just released.   Posted by rlb2</DIV> Glad to see you back.  I still have all your excellent images book marked from uplink

http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=sciastro&Number=640056&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=all <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /> </div>

rlb2 · Jun 10, 2008

Thanks michaelmozina and  bearack cant wait to see what Phoenix comes up with.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Jun 10, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hello rlb2,My guess is that salts in the soil, probably highly concentrated salts in the soil, dissolve into the liquid water surface layer on the ice crystal surfaces during the Martian winter.  Then when the ice sublimes away in the Martian spring, the salts crystallize out.  This gradually forms clumps and adhesions between dust and soil particles.In fact, in the scoop of soil, you can see chunks of white something, which my guess are highly concentrated salts.  In fact, I would not be at all surprised if the white material uncovered under the lander is actually a layer of rather hard salt crust, just below the looser soil.  I think that the annual cycles of ice forming and subliming would concentrate the salts, and ultimately exclude the salts from the bulk ices to form a salt crust.   Maybe the salt crust is only a couple cm thick (?).......... The clumpiness and crustiness should have been expected and predicted from a soil that goes through annual cycles of ice deposition and sublimation.  In fact, these cycles could be duplicated rather easily in the lab, and this would be a good exploratory study to see the effects on soil clumping and salt transport. Posted by silylene</DIV>Hi silylene, Sounds about right to me, sounds like you did a little research on this, soon we may find out what it is. They claimed to be a little miffed about what it is that is causing it, that’s a good thing it allows me to speculate even more. I would go one step further and guess that some of the clumping is from more water mixed with soil than they expected as they scooped it up. I would speculate that water vapor is seeping out of the surface at certain times of the day and it is clumping more during the warmest time of the day.  It wouldn't take too much pressure from the soil above water-ice to turn to a liquid if it had a heat source and as you said mix that with salts and you have a brine. The temperature above the surface may be -22 during the day which can be warm enough for a slurry of brine to exist underneath the soil, but the surface temperature of the soil maybe 20 degrees or more warmer. It is much colder above the surface in the day time than on the surface on mars because of the thin atmosphere and the absorption of the suns energy, Viking, Pathfinder found that out. Take a walk on the pavement outside sometimes barefoot in the summertime on earth. If it has a dark Albedo then it will absorb more radiant energy and be much hotter.  Heck even water may exist as a solid or liquid off and on like it does in the tundra areas of Alaska under the soil, in this case the top layer of soil provides the added pressure that traps the water vapor building up even more pressure to allow it to turn into a liquid underneath the soil.  Phoenix may be sitting in a mud trap. It will be interesting to see the landing pads as the days goes on if they sink into a muck like during a warmer part of the day, just like you would expect in the Alaska tundra. That would be a kick to see before the end of its mission.Another possibility is electrostatic cling. Moon dust is very electrostatic charged it would make since that Mars may be too. I hope this is not the case here.Look at this just released 06/11/08 looks kind of wet to me??? <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/15/8b4a5a23-84ec-408b-8f9c-71671af2f0e7.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="296" height="251" />   <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/4/fc314e3b-5849-4f6e-84d1-36a65f36b730.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="297" height="243" />   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Jun 12, 2008

SS016EDN897622533_11E18RBM1 <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/6/f81f9ea5-1985-450d-86da-e5846ad6007d.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="357" height="305" />  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

michaelmozina · Jun 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Another possibility is electrostatic cling. Moon dust is very electrostatic charged it would make since that Mars may be too. I hope this is not the case here.Look at this just released 06/11/08 looks kind of wet to me???    Posted by rlb2</DIV>I've been looking at these images now for days but I still can't decide if it looks wet to me or if the clumpiness might be related to static cling.  It does look "sticky" alright, but I just can't decide if moisture or static cling might be the primary clumping culprit.  Maybe some of the upcomming tests will give us additional some clues......

<div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

silylene old · Jun 12, 2008

I thought rlb2 and others would appreciate this article on the phase equilibria of H20-salt-CO2 at Mars surface conditions by Bodnar:  http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2001/pdf/1689.pdf <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/13/ec84835b-676f-4e1e-8dbc-bcb74619ffa2.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

rlb2 · Jun 13, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I've been looking at these images now for days but I still can't decide if it looks wet to me or if the clumpiness might be related to static cling.  It does look "sticky" alright, </DIV>Here is a another spookier thought, “What If,” its because of some type of bacterial matA bacterial mat is a layer of bacteria that may form in environments where other organisms are unable to thrive (e.g. rock faces, ice shelves). In many cases, such a layer is not described as a "mat" until it becomes sufficiently thick to be visible to the naked eye. <span style="color

urple">http://en.<span style="color

urple">wikipedia<span style="color

urple">.<span style="color

urple">org<span style="color

urple">/<span style="color

urple">wiki<span style="color

urple">/Bacterial_matsHere is the reasoning for my madness and the reason for the What If statement above. Look at the images below, notice the rainbow like colors (Second from top) of the shadows. This is because everyone of these images are taken seconds or in some cases minutes apart, in this case it must have been taken minutes apart because of the different tints of the shadow. The RGB filters images are taken one by one, there's three channels that are installed on top of each other to make a color image. If you are looking for movement on the surface then what you want is one of the bright colors you see in the shadow. Something can move between two frame or between all three. Now take a look  (Third from top) notice the deep bluish tint of the area around the white looking soil. This could even be a result of exposed water ice sublimating in-between frames? This way of looking for movement isn’t conclusive enough to be an exact science, there are a few other explanations that have to be taken into account for it to be bright blue, however – I saw very little of this in over 3,000 color images I processed so far from the Opportunity, or Spirit. You may not be able to see this in the bottom image but in my more higher resolution image it stands out, there is a purple streak in the cropped image, this means something moved in one frame only. There is another way to look for movement and that is from a time lapse images from the same filter made into a movie. I thought rlb2 and others would appreciate this article Thanks silylene that was very helpful.   <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/6/5c097e9b-9a67-4fb3-86d9-9b7240be14c6.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="383" height="280" /> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/7/4ee46e7d-558e-4b87-97b1-bb476543bc8e.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="284" height="199" /> <img style="width:283px;height:226px" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/8/e3230f70-ad51-461a-a87b-d98cbb87a297.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="325" height="241" /> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/14/038d503c-0dea-492f-aed0-28aa56a67fcc.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="296" height="242" />   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

michaelmozina · Jun 13, 2008

Might these movement type patterns also be caused by small changes in refraction of different wavelengths due to moisture in the soil?I like the way you're thinking by the way.  I'm also wondering if the various wavelengths and different image times might be influenced by some sort of prism effect in water molecules in these same regions.  If this is some sort of tundra condition, I'm wondering if excess moisture in these areas might not have a similar effect?  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

thor06 · Jun 16, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Let me second that. Great to see you back as rlb2!! Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> Holy cow!  Gentleman this is quite a thread.  I like to read the original post and make my way through the discussion.   I made it to the 5th page and realized I was in 2005.  Skipped some pages after that, but all in all a facinating thread.  The in-depth evolution of Mars science and the hunt for water past present and future.<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif" border="0" alt="Laughing" title="Laughing" />The other thing I realized on the 5th page, rlb2 had white text, thought you were just quoting others and pasting links. rib? rlb?With that, I would also like to welcome rlb2 back, though for me it has only been a few minutes since you left. Oh this is for Jon: The "Aiko" <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/10/698aa585-49cd-461a-9a0e-6d42fdae3601.Medium.jpg" alt="" />   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

thor06 · Jun 16, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi Jon Clarke & Rib2. Yes Phoenix is a very brave adventure for very little money. Knowing JPL, I think it wil succeed & will surprise us all with its endurance.  Posted by 3488</DIV>2006I could not agree more! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

rlb2 · Jun 16, 2008

thor06 - Great to see you back as rlb2!!Thanks, I have been rejuvenated by Phoenix.  Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Might these movement type patterns also be caused by small changes in refraction of different wavelengths due to moisture in the soil?I like the way you're thinking by the way.  I'm also wondering if the various wavelengths and different image times might be influenced by some sort of prism effect in water molecules in these same regions.  If this is some sort of tundra condition, I'm wondering if excess moisture in these areas might not have a similar effect?  Posted by michaelmozina</DIV>Pretty soon we may find out, they have a soil sample in the oven as we speak. Here is a time lapse movie from the optical microscope that I made of some of the images of Worm-like object crawling on Mars at the bottom in between shadows time laps images from the Phoenix Lander images 233223main_OS004EFF896565821_11040MRM1 thru 233267main_OS004EFF896566155_11040MBM1 not verified by NASA scientist about what it is so don't get too exited yet? I saw a similar effect way back during the Pathfinder mission; I now found another one - worm.I'm putting this on YouTube folks; as soon as it uploads I will link it here –   http://youtube.com/watch?v=QnrY9OSSFRgThe Windows Media player  movie is here:  http://mem<a href="http://members.cox.net/theinnovator/Movie_0005.wmv">bers.cox.net/theinnovator/Movie_0005.wmv</a>  or click on top image for link.<img style="width:167px;height:265px" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/2/c51e9b60-8212-4e62-a257-00b26ebef5f4.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="257" height="314" /> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/12/0b636fa5-931e-4026-9cb1-1486f3d44b32.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/10/d8743065-a765-4ce3-9add-50b56c3f9919.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Here is another image that now makes me curious to what the transparent object sticking up in this image is, is it sticky stuff to hold the soil down or some kind of glass??? Optical Microscope on NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander shows soil sprinkled from the Lander’s Robot Arm scoop onto a silicone substrate. http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/247290main_Sol017SiliconeMosaicComposite.jpg<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/3/956a5e4e-2866-42bc-b320-518a46c91e6f.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="262" height="228" />  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

michaelmozina · Jun 16, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Pretty soon we may find out, they have a soil sample in the oven as we speak. </DIV>I guess just about everyone interested in astronomy is looking forward to those results.

<div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars / New Phoenix Lander results

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