Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars / New Phoenix Lander results

[brellis]

Thanks for carrying the load, Ron. Your site looks great!<br /><br />Article on NASA/MRO says recent gullies might not involve water after all.<br /><br /><font color="orange">Last year, discovery of the fresh gully deposits from before-and-after images taken since 1999 by another orbiter, Mars Global Surveyor, raised hopes that modern flows of liquid water had been detected on Mars. Observations by the newer orbiter, which reached Mars last year, suggest these deposits might instead have resulted from landslides of loose, dry materials. Researchers report this and other findings from Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter in five papers in Friday's issue of the journal Science.<br /><br />"The key question raised by these two deposits is whether water is coming to the surface of Mars today," said Alfred McEwen of the University of Arizona, Tucson, lead scientist for the spacecraft's High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment camera and co-author of three of the papers. "Our evidence suggests the new deposits did not necessarily involve water."<br /><br />One of the fresh deposits is a stripe of relatively bright material several hundred yards long that was not present in 1999 but appeared by 2004. The orbiter's Compact Reconnaissance Imaging Spectrometer for Mars reveals the deposit is not frost, ice or a mineral left behind by evaporation of salty water. Also, the researchers inspected the slopes above this and five other locations that have bright and apparently young deposits. The slopes are steep enough for sand or loose, dry dust to flow down the gullies. Bright material seen uphill could be the source.<br /><br />Other gullies, however, offer strong evidence of liquid water flowing on Mars within the last few million years, although perhaps at a different phase of repeating climate cycles. Mars, like Earth, has periodic changes in climate due to the cycles related to the planets' tilts and orb</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">I have been a 'dry Mars guy' for a long time," Christensen said. "These findings are basically saying you look at very high resolution and you do see some evidence for water, there's no disputing that. But you don't see an overwhelming amount of evidence for water."<br /><br />The MRO has examined ice-rich layered deposits near the Martian poles with the ground-penetrating Shallow Subsurface Radar instrument, and other experiments. The radar detected layering patterns near the south pole that suggest climatic periods of accumulating deposits have alternated with periods of erosion, report Roberto Seu of the University of Rome and co-authors. Maria Zuber of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and collaborators used effects of Mars' gravity on the orbiter to check whether layered deposits at the south pole are high-density material, such as rock, or lower-density such as ice. Their observations add to other evidence that the layers are mostly water. Kenneth Herkenhoff of the U.S. Geological Survey, Flagstaff, and others used the high-resolution camera to trace a series of distinctive layers near the north pole. <font color="white"><br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />Were those images taken before the global dust storm, during or after? Dry guys look for dry evidence wet guys look for wet evidence. A few dry victories don’t discredit all the other evidence; it only gets the debate to a higher level. Christensen was a dry guy way before Spirit and Opportunity yet both rovers found evidence of a wet past.<br /><br />Christensen living in the desert Southwest is now experiencing what is called the monsoon season there which starts in early August the hottest time of the year, where the humidity level goes way up? Mars water surfacing at certain times of the seasons may have a time where water vapor is more detectable at certain times of years around the area in question just like it is in the desert southwest. <br /><br />Check this video out.<br /> <br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[brellis]

Thanks for the link, Ron. From the Viking team comes a very compelling reminder of the evidence of wetness - "Dom's Delight". <img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" /><br /><br />As disappointing as a 'dry' explanation for recent changes in the two gullies between 1999 and 2004 may be, however, it is less complex than the various 'wet' explanations bandied about regarding those particular locations.<br /><br />btw, I'm rooting for the water on Mars! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

It's just a guess, but I suspect there are wet and dry areas on Mars, as a result of the extreme variations in obliquity (tilt axis) that the planet goes through. They might not be exactly where we currently expect.<br /><br />The orbiters and rovers have given us a treasure trove of data, digesting it will take some time. Theories and models will be refined (not thrown out) as this new information is incorporated.<br /><br />It wouldn't surprise me at all if the wet and dry folks are right in their respective areas. As someone said, the dry folks look in dry places, <br />and the wet folks look in wet places. <br /><br />MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">btw, I'm rooting for the water on Mars!<font color="white"><br /><br />The dry guys keep us honest. They keep us honest so we should try to keep them honest too by asking important questions on how they came to there conclusions.</font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

On Mars the gullies are sloped areas where runoff don’t last long, doesn’t saturate the ground deep enough, and freezes in a short time. Flat areas like craters can saturate the subsurface after melting and freezing time over time if the water ice is deep enough because there is little movement down a slope area. Any runoff from the gullies would freeze soon after the seepage, what doesn’t freeze ends up as water vapor. In gullies after a short time of freezing and thawing of the exposed water ice most would sublimate into the atmosphere because it never had a chance to saturate the subsurface below it because it was sloped. <br /><br />Any observations taken to confirm or deny the presence of water in gullies areas should be taken at the time of observation. With MRO now at our beckoning call these observation as they happen may be quickly analyzed and confirmed or deny by other scientific observations at the time they happen. The MRO confirmation two to four year’s after the observation of the proposed gully runoff is not recent enough information to totally disprove the previous claims neither are the previous claims of water seepage good enough to prove it was from a water source. <br /><br />As far as I am concerned the gulley water runoff hypothesis is not fully credited or denied from the use of the most recent MRO observations because it didn't happen soon enough after the time of the runoff. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[brellis]

I don't know if she's a "dry guy" but Gwendolyn Bart used hi-res Apollo images of lunar gullies to put forth a skeptical view. She seems relatively fair-and-balanced, so to speak, saying <font color="orange">"If the dry landslide hypothesis for the formation of martian gullies is correct, we might expect to see similar features on the moon, where there is no water," she said. "We do."<br /><br />Gullies in the moon's 10-mile-diameter (17 kilometer) crater Dawes are similar in structure and size to those in a martian crater that MOC photographed. Micrometeorites hitting the smooth slopes and crater on the airless moon could easily trigger small avalanches that form gullies, Bart said.<br /><br />However, the martian gullies also resemble gullies on Earth that were formed by water, she noted.<br /><br />"My point is that you can't just look at the Mars gullies and assume they were formed by water. It may be, or may be not. We need another test to know." </font><br /><br />And that test may come from a combination of repeated HiRISE sweeps of the gullies and Phoenix digging into Mars and telling us more about what's going on today. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[franontanaya]

Meh, but then, why the dark streaks carve shallow v-shaped depressions instead of gullies, if both are produced by dry dust, which is more or less deposited globally by the dust storms?<br /><br />Also, mass wasting on the edges of martian slopes, which look quite like the edges of that Moon crater, doesn't have the other features of the gullies we have seen with HiRISE. The first one looks more straight, with wider collection areas, while the gullies we are looking at seem deeper, with rounded shapes that turn in a way, on very steep slopes, that makes you think that dry dust would just clog and jump out.<br /><br />I think both things can be related: that the normal mass wasting of slopes is modified by CO2 or water ice -which sounds pretty common sense-. The water ice gathering on a slope would be rather clean, not briny, so I guess there isn't any reason to expect it to leave any special trace if it melts and sublimates in a short timespan.<br /><br />Here a comparison of martian gullies:<br /><br />Gullies related with frost:<br />http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_001816_1410<br /><br />Some common gullies: <br />http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_004988_1085<br />http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_001792_1425<br /><br />Bright gullies:<br />http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_003498_1090<br />http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_003511_1115<br /><br />Mass wasting with traces of gullies:<br />http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_004044_1165<br />http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_004060_ <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Interesting observations from MRO HiRISE.<br /><br />Salt deposits in Terra Cimermeria.<br /><br />Inverted Channels in Juventae Chasma.<br /><br />Catastrophic outflows in Tharsis.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

Nice pictures.<br />What is an inverted channel?

 

[3488]

Hi Joel,<br /><br />Inverted channels are where at one time sediments were deposited in fractures<br />by water, than over time, the infilled channels become rock. <br /><br />Over time after the water dried up, wind & temperature extremes erode the landscape,<br />but the rock hard infilled channels are harder than the surrounding terrain, so they<br />actually stand above the surroundings, hence Inverted Channels.<br /><br />In other words, what were once depressions (channels in this case) are now raised.<br /><br />I hope my ramblings makes sense???????<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

It does. Thanks Andrew.

 

[3488]

Hi Joel,<br /><br />On Mars there are also Pedestal Craters, same sort of thing, where the impact had<br />solidified the crater area, the surrounding terrain, erodes, but the crater, once a dpression<br />is now elevated.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">Life's Building Blocks Found in Mars Rock<br /><br />A new study finds these building blocks could have formed very early in the history of Mars.<br /><br />"Organic material occurs within tiny spheres of carbonate minerals in both the Martian and Earth rocks," said study leader Andrew Steele at the Carnegie Institution's Geophysical Laboratory. "We found that the organic material is closely associated with the iron oxide mineral magnetite, which is the key to understanding how these compounds formed."<br /><br />As the rocks cooled, magnetite acted as a catalyst to form organic compounds from fluids rich in carbon dioxide and water. In the Mars meteorite, the organic material did not originate from Martian life forms but formed directly from these chemical reactions within the rock, Steele and his colleagues figure.<br /> <br />"The results of this study show that volcanic activity in a freezing climate can produce organic compounds," said study co-author Hans E.F. Amundsen from Earth and Planetary Exploration Services, a private company. "This implies that building blocks of life can form on cold rocky planets throughout the universe."<br /><br />http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/071211-mars-meteorite.html<br /><br /><font color="white">Then the Phoenix is headed in the right direction.</font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">The puzzle is what produced a patch of nearly pure silica -- the main ingredient of window glass -- that Spirit found last May. It could have come from either a hot-spring environment or an environment called a fumarole, in which acidic steam rises through cracks. On Earth, both of these types of settings teem with microbial life.<br /> <br />"Whichever of those conditions produced it, this concentration of silica is probably the most significant discovery by Spirit for revealing a habitable niche that existed on Mars in the past," said Steve Squyres of Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y., principal investigator for the rovers' science payload. "The evidence is pointing most strongly toward fumarolic conditions, like you might see in Hawaii and in Iceland. Compared with deposits formed at hot springs, we know less about how well fumarolic deposits can preserve microbial fossils. That's something needing more study here on Earth." <br /><br />"This stuff is more than 90 percent silica," Squyres said. "There aren't many ways to explain a concentration so high." One way is to selectively remove silica from the native volcanic rocks and concentrate it in the deposits Spirit found. Hot springs can do that, dissolving silica at high heat and then dropping it out of solution as the water cools. Another way is to selectively remove almost everything else and leave the silica behind. Acidic steam at fumaroles can do that. Scientists are still assessing both possible origins. One reason Squyres favors the fumarole story is that the silica-rich soil on Mars has an enhanced level of titanium. On Earth, titanium levels are relatively high in some fumarolic deposits.<br /><br />These sulfate-rich layers bear extensive evidence for a wet, acidic past environment. They are a small upper fraction of the sulfate-rich layering exposed elsewhere in Meridiani and examined from orbit.<br /> <br />"We see evidence from orbit for clay minerals under the layered sulfate materials,"</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">tributary associated from one of the Columbia Hills that protrudes above the plate.<font color="white"><br /><br />I don’t know, sure makes things a little confusing doesn’t it. If it is from an underground source such as a hot spring then they may be close to the where it was vented to the atmosphere. A couple of mounds not too far from there around home plate could be the source; they look so much like geyser mounds at Yellowstone Park. <br /><br />http://www.yellowstonepark.com/Things/ThingsToDo.aspx?magacatid=5<br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb]

<p>Hi everyone my&nbsp;old screen name&nbsp;was rlb2, I'm back as rlb....</p><p>Be interesting to see what Phoenix finds...</p><p><font face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana">Here is a link to all the images missing from these posts...</span></font></p><p>http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=sciastro&Number=381751&page=7&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=</p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">TEMPE</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">, </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">Ariz.</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial"> - Deposits of nearly pure silica discovered by the Mars Exploration Rover Spirit in Gusev Crater formed when <span><font color="#800080">volcanic</font></span> steam or hot water (or maybe both) percolated through the ground. Such deposits are found around hydrothermal vents like those in </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">Yellowstone</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">National Park</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">. That's the conclusion of planetary scientists working with data collected by the rover's Miniature Thermal Emission Spectrometer (Mini-TES), a mineral-scouting instrument developed at </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">Arizona</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">State</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">University</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">. </span></p>&nbsp;<span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">The silica discovery, announced briefly by NASA in 2007, is fully described in a multi-author paper that appears in the </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">May 23, 2008</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial"> issue of the scientific journal Science. The lead author is Steven Squyres of </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">Cornell</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">University</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">, principal investigator for the rover science payload. </span><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">The silica finding turns a spotlight on an important site that may contain preserved traces of ancient Martian life.</span></p><p><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial">&nbsp;</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial"><font color="#800080">http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25503</font></span> </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

You might want to check out the Missions and Launches forum.&nbsp; Two threads there.&nbsp; One covering the journey/landing events and a new one covering the surface mission. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[rlb]

Thanks derekmcd for that link. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[silylene old]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Thanks derekmcd for that link. <br />Posted by rlb</DIV><br /><br />Hello rlb ! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[rlb]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hello rlb ! <br />Posted by silylene</DIV></p><p>Hi silyene. It's&nbsp;good to be back and see that some of the old&nbsp;posters are still here.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi silyene. It's&nbsp;good to be back and see that some of the old&nbsp;posters are still here. <br />Posted by rlb</DIV></p><p>Welcome back indeed!&nbsp; Will we see your sepia-toned magic on Phoenic images?</p><p>Jon</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rlb]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Welcome back indeed!&nbsp; Will we see your sepia-toned magic on Phoenic images?Jon <br />Posted by jonclarke</DIV></p><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana"><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana">Thanks&nbsp;Jon, </span><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana">Phoenix</span><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana">&nbsp;will be static and the scenery wont be as compelling as the Spirit or </span><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana">Opportunity</span><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana"> sites but what a place to hunt for&nbsp;past or&nbsp;present evidence&nbsp;of life.&nbsp;It is going&nbsp;get interesting. </span></p></span> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<p><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana"><font size="5"><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana">Hi folks - again. </span><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana">&nbsp;</span><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana">I did get my old screen name back.&nbsp;I'm working on my website to eventually downlink thousands of my Spirit and </span><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana">Opportunity</span><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana"> full resolution color images as a dedicated reference. When I get that up and running I will provide a link&nbsp;to it here&nbsp;and other places.&nbsp;Be gentle on me and other places that post color images because all monitors aren't&nbsp;calibrated the same therefore all color images will not appear as the poster presented..&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana">&nbsp;</span></font></span></p><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana"><font size="5"><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana">Here is an image from the latest </span><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana">Phoenix</span><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana"> shovel test in color. These images don't post very big, I didn't&nbsp;think&nbsp;I would every say this but I&nbsp;miss the old way.</span><font face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana">The original Phoenix color image was oversaturated; I sharpened it and&nbsp;toned it down a bit. </span></font></span><span style="font-size:5pt;font-family:Verdana"><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p></span><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><font size="5">http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=1698&cID=36</font></p><p><font size="5">&nbsp;lg_1698</font>http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Forums/#</p><p><br /><img style="width:412px;height:205px" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/9/bdaf4ad2-2ccc-44e4-8958-8b8ebfc0a04a.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="326" height="162" /></p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

<p>Whoa, could you edit the font size on your reply? Even with my glasses, I can't read that <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif" border="0" alt="Laughing" title="Laughing" /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>