Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars / New Phoenix Lander results

3488 · Aug 11, 2006

Thanks Rib2 for your image & contribution. Rib2 & Jon Clarke answers are below. Mars Phoenix Lander does indeed arrive in the early Martian Northern Hemisphere Summer. On Mars the Summer Solstice during that paticular martian year is on 24th June 2008, just THREE days after that on Earth (spooky co-incidence). When MPL lands in May 2008, the Sun will be circumpolar at the time as seen from the co-ordinates quoted (67.5 North, 240 East, Scandia Colles, so does not set at all). In June 2008 from MPL the sun will dip to about 2.6 degrees above the northern horizon at Midnight & will then rise again (assuming the view to the north is featureless, no hills, crater rims, tall dunes, etc). If the landing succeeds this will be the first time we will ever have seen the Midnight Sun from another planet. The sun will start setting in late August 2008 from MPL's site (very briefly for only a few minutes at first, but the nights will lengthen enormously very quickly afterwards, until the Sun from this location does not rise at all, during the Winter here). At mid Winter here in Scandia Colles, the Sun will come up to about 2.6 degrees BELOW the southern horizon at Midday. It will ALMOST be full daylight for a couple of hours, but the solar disk never shows. It is a shame that MPL will not survive this long, as I think there could be some interesting light shows with high altitude ice clouds, weird twilights, etc. Will Mars Phoenix Lander have RTG backup? Despite round the clock daylight, the heat from the sun will be pathetically weak for much of the time? Hope this helps. BTW Rib2, how did you get your brilliant image posted? The impact crater MPL is due to land next to is clearly visible. Whenever I try to post anything like that, it is always rejected for being too big, so I end up doing a crappy version that fits. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Aug 11, 2006

Thank you for finding that image. The terrain is much rougher than I would hav expected. I have no idea what the white things are. They look like really odd, I would guess image artefacts, but beyond that, I don't know. Maybe they are relict snow patches that are overloading the CCDs producing the black and white effect? Just a wild guess. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Aug 11, 2006

Thanks for that Andrew. Phoenix does not have RTGs. I would we very surprised if it does not have RHUs though, all the recent US landers have them. However, as the diurnal temperature range is less, in some respects, the high latitudes are a more benign environment that the tropics, where temperature can fluctuate by 70 degrees or more over a sol. Once winter sets in temperatures will drop towards -140 and lander will be buried beneath a metre or two of CO2 snow. It's not expected (or designed) to survive. Pity, time lapse photography of the coming of spring would be cool. But at least hopefully there will be pictures of the first winter snows. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Aug 11, 2006

I hope that there will be too. Remember that brilliant landscape in full colour from Viking 2 in Utopia Planitia with the frost deposits?? I still think that is a great image. The CO2 snow is expected to be that deep so close to the Martian arctic circle?? I suppose -140 C will do it. I hope there will be time lapse imagery of the Midnight Sun on Mars swooping low over the horizon. Time Lapse photography of the approach of Autumn (Fall) may be possible with the first frosts & CO2 snows even. I would have thought that Phoenix has RHUs at the very least. Do we know what the Summer temperatures are here? I would be surprised if it gets above minus 50 Celsius at this high latitude. Lets just hope that the successes of both of the Mars Rovers will rub off on Phoenix. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Aug 11, 2006

Scandia Colles, in its 1,232 KM / 765 mile diameter entirety, full colour slightly oblique view from Mars Global Surveyor: Note the frost filled craters to the north. I think the landing site is about two thirds of the way up & roughly mid way. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

rlb2 · Aug 11, 2006

Thanks for all that good information, right now I have to leave but I will be back later to tell you how to reduce your image broadband size so you can post a larger image. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

JonClarke · Aug 11, 2006

The more I think about this mission the more visually exciting it will be. I orginally thought after the initial pan there would not be much to see. Especailly being used to the rovers! But with the more varied landscape than I first thought, seasonal changes and the martian midnight sun it is going to be spectacular. I don't know what daytime temperatures will be, but it will be enough to render brass monkeys incomplete! MOLA day suggests that there is up to 3 m of snow on the polar cap every winter, thining to zero at the edge. I have heard 2 m at the latitude of Scandia Colles. When you think how much snow Viking 2 saw at Utopia, at 48 degrees N, the winter at 68 N is doing to be very snowy. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

rlb2 · Aug 12, 2006

Whenever I try to post anything like that, it is always rejected for being too big, so I end up doing a crappy version that fits. I can help you post large images here if you have Adobe Photoshop click on: File Save for Web Pick – Jpeg - in the right hand column Below Jpeg pick - low = 10 Look at the bottom left of image for size if more than 100 kb then you either need to change the size of the image in the images size box below or decrease the quality below 10 Then save the image Note the difference between maximum broadband sizes and low is huge. Most images shown on the web can be stored at medium level without loosing much of the clarity. Low you sacrifice some clarity but most people can’t see the difference, for example the white spots in the image above are the same, no fading of the image quality. That’s because these images were low quality images to begin with it takes a lot of time to beam these images back to Earth. There is very little difference between medium and high, maybe if I had a high definition monitor I could see the difference more. Most of my large images posted here are Jpeg – low. Stay tuned if I have my way in 2012 a new type of digital imager will be sent to Mars that will have such a high quality and detail it would be able to take high quality true color Imax size images. Transmission back to Earth is and will be the biggest problem for this to work. I’m sure you can do this if you have a different imaging program, you will just have to look for it before you save the image probably under File. Hope that helped. I have higher quality images here at my monthly Update of MER images. http://members.cox.net/mars.images/index.htm 1P208174373EL5M1.5 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Aug 12, 2006

I have no idea what the white things are. They look like really odd, I would guess image artefacts, but beyond that, I don't know.Maybe they are relict snow patches that are overloading the CCDs producing the black and white effect? Just a wild guess. Good wild guess. They could be an artifact since it is one image, RGB combined images (3) have less artifacts. Another thought other than ice geysers or new craters is remnants of the frozen CO2 that didn't vaporize back into the atmosphere. Below is the other side of Phoenix landing site image number V10652008 Just above the concentric crater on the left side of this image and on the right side of the image above, a best guess judgment from looking at the targeted images, is where Phoenix is going to land, notice there are no white dots, maybe as suggested the white dots were seasonal snow patches. Note the difference in the numbers of the adjacent images V11588002 vs V10652008 they must have been taken at different seasonal passes. As you said Jon its going to be spectacular to see it snow on Mars. Nobody will have to render the color images downlinked to Earth because Phoenix will have a CDC color cameras that will have a truer color-like image. Finally something made to give us true color imagery. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Aug 13, 2006

I plugged in the coordinates 67.5º N and 240º E given at this web site http://planetary.chem.tufts.edu/Phoenix/landing_site_selection.htm and got the above two images from this site http://themis.asu.edu/mars-bin/webmap.pl?clat=67.6171875&clon=240.05466050000243&res=5&psz=0&fgrnd=0&bgrnd=1&day_night=0&cookie=0&rel=0 but according to this targeted image it’s more to the right of the two images I processed. Stay tuned folks I will extract a new image and do it again according to the target zone in the image below. This can happen with different formats of the geographical maps and rasper images. Hopefully they don’t read one map to target the landing with different coordinates, latitudes and longitudes, from another. It shouldn't happen but it can happen. The black circle is where I think the two top images are from with 67.5º N and 240º E cordinates extracted out of THEMIS. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

3488 · Aug 14, 2006

Cheers for that. Will have to try. Below are the viewpoints of the Midnight Sun from the MPL site, 67.5 N 240 E Scandia Colles. Tuesday 24th June 2008. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Aug 14, 2006

Earth from from the MPL site, 67.5 N 240 E Scandia Colles. Tuesday 24th June 2008. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Aug 14, 2006

Viking 2 Utopia Planitia showing frost deposits. 48 North. Winter in Utopia Planitia. May 1979. Will be interesting to see how much accululates at 67.5 North at the MPL site. As Jon Clark says, the CO2 may reach a depth of 2 metres. MPL will be largely buried. It is a pity that there is no RTG backup. The Winter period would be really strange. However if all goes well, hopefully MPL will make it well into the Autumn. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Aug 14, 2006

I am not sure if even an RTG would have stopped the probe being buried. Viking's RTG put out about 4 kW of heat but with the- outside temperatures at Scandia Colles falling to -140 I am not sure whether this amount of heat would sublime the snow there. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Aug 14, 2006

4 KW. I suppose that is true, it would not be enough. It is just that assuming this is a successful landing, MPL offers a unique opportunity to sample a high latitude site in great detail, through out the Martian year & it would be interesting to see how CO2 snow accumulates. We have good detail on CO2 frost from Viking 2 at the more southerly location. In a way I feel that MPL may be the wrong sort of craft for this high latitude location. I think that MPL may be better suited for a more temperate site. The solar power requirements are a real limitation in this case. MPL really needs to be RTG powered. What do you think?? Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Aug 14, 2006

Remember that RTGs have a conversion efficiency of about 2%, so that they produce 50 times as much heat as electricity. The figures I had said the Viking had 80 watts of electrical power, hence 4 kW. If it was only 60, then that is still 3 kW. That's three small bar radiators. Agree totally that there has been extraordinary advances in solar cells in the past decade and that there will more in the future. We can see this by comparing the MERs and ExoMars. the MERs were limited to within 20 degrees of the equator, ExoMars to 40 degrees. But the high latitudes are a challenge for design of Phoenix. Remember that the sun angle will be lower so light intensity will also be lower than the equatorial value you quote. The last few months of the mission will have low power requirements though, just enough power to collect weather data and take images perhaps every few days. The primary mission is three months, followed by 2 months of secondary mission, but I hope it can last until the onset of winter. In theory, provided the cold does not snap the electronics, Phoebix could become activated again when spring comes. However, I suspect the weight of 2 m of snow on the solar panels on either side could snap them off. But I am sure that there will be an attempt to look for a signal come spring. Unless some catasrophic happened before the onset of winter, of course. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

rlb2 · Aug 14, 2006

Jon - !37estreet As the Solar radiation trapping devices are getting more efficient and lighter so is RTG getting more efficient. Viking was 2 percent now they can go up to as much as 20 percent by taking the radiant energy transferring that into electrical energy by way of a solar cell-like cover. Note if RTG use the same principal as solar concentrators they may reach about 40 percent converted into electrical energy. Seehttp://spectrolab.com/prd/terres/cell-main.htm Energy conversion devices which rely on the principle of thermionic emission can achieve efficiencies between 10-20%, but require higher temperatures than those at which standard RTGs run. Some prototype 210Po RTG have used thermionics, and potentially other extremely radioactive isotopes could also provide power by this means, but short half-lives make these infeasible. Several space-bound nuclear reactors have used thermionics, but nuclear reactors are usually too heavy to use on most space probes. Thermophotovoltaic cells work by the same principles as a photovoltaic cell, except that they convert infrared light emitted by a hot surface rather than visible light into electricity. Thermophotovoltaic cells have an efficiency slightly higher than thermocouples and can be overlaid on top of thermocouples, potentially doubling efficiency. Systems with radioisotope generators simulated by electric heaters have demonstrated efficiencies of 20%[2], but have not been tested with actual radioisotopes. Some theoretical thermophotovoltaic cell designs have efficiencies up to 30%, but these have yet to be built or confirmed. Thermophotovoltaic cells and silicon thermcouples degrade faster than thermocouples, especially in the presence of ionizing radiation. Further research is needed in this area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectr</safety_wrapper <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

3488 · Aug 16, 2006

I still think that the Phoenix lander may be thwe wrong type of craft for this site. Perhaps the solar panels will be strong enough to support the weight of CO2 snow (bearing in mind that the surface gravity of Mars is 38% that of Earth & that 2 metres of Carbon Dioxide snow will not be as compacted as it would be on Earth). I do hope that JPL will try & wake MPL in the Spring. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Aug 16, 2006

The rightness of wrongness of a spacecraft can only be evaluated against its ability to meet the design criteria. Ultimately this can only be evaluated by actual performance, so have to wait for two years for the final verdict on Phoenix. Ubtil then we can only evaluate Phoenix against its ability to meet the selection criteria and it's liklihood of meeting the design goals. Selection criteria included nnovative experiments under a restricted budget. Phoenix successfully passed these aginst very stuff competition. Design goals including a 3 month primary mission and a 2 month extended mission. There is every reason to think that Phoenix has as good a chance of completing its design goals as any spacecraft. It wasn't designed to last through the Martian winter and should be expected to. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

rlb2 · Aug 16, 2006

I still think that the Phoenix lander may be thwe wrong type of craft for this site. It was a low budget thing with a monumental idea I hope it succeeds, I also hope they use the right map with the right coordinates then the two above, THEMIS and targeted map, don't match. I'm sure the people in the know, knows the difference. As I said before if the Phoenix had a motion type landing pads that it could move, walk, a couple of meters after it lands to get to something just out of reach, which would be cool. But you know what they say about if's, if frogs had wings they wouldn't have to bump their backside on the rocks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who thru the rocks? Look carefully at the two areas I circled below the lower circled area has an impression that looks like the upper circled rock, what happened here? Either the rock exploded and moved up hill by a impact or internally high-pressure gas / vapor heated with enough power to sheer the rock and move part of the rock up-hill. There are a lot of different things that could cause this, if it is an impression of the rock above it. I looked for the rover track impressions next to the rocks and I couldn't find any. Another idea is up is down and down is up on that image with gravity moving the loose rock down hill. What really caught my eye was when I searched other images and found an artifact in one of the images; I took a closer look at it and saw perpendicular streaks rising above the regolith. The streaks were in front of the sand and rock? This is just one more question mark beamed back to Earth from a MER most excellent adventure. 1P208168831EL2M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

3488 · Aug 17, 2006

Hi Jon Clarke & Rib2. Yes Phoenix is a very brave adventure for very little money. Knowing JPL, I think it wil succeed & will surprise us all with its endurance. I see your points about the landing site quoted & the landing ellipse not being in the same place. I hope they realise this & soon. The rock seen by MER B Opportunity, I see what you mean. It has sheared THROUGH the layers, not ALONG the layers, which would be the normal points of weakness. Could be related to the impact that created Beagle Crater, but I think that your idea of trapped gas subliming splitting the rock in two, is more likely IMO. Also the fact the rock went very slightly UPHILL supports this (bearing in mind Mars's 38% surface gravity, would make this easier on Mars than on Earth). Please keep posting your brilliant images Rib2. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

rlb2 · Aug 29, 2006

Top right some appearance of motion-like movement in image possible seepage or ground fog, I saw similar type images at Endurance? See first images in this thread in Endurance or go to:http://members.cox.net/skyclimbers/1P153127970EL5M1.jpg Ooops original image too large for this thread, I reloaded it. 1P208172258EL5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Oct 16, 2006

"Another New Mars”, now we are going to get the good data that will help tell the rest of the story and MRO hasn’t even fired up its instrument package yet. The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) is still weeks away from beginning its planned science mission, but the immense probe has thrilled scientists with initial images and data pointing to a variable polar environment, ancient soaking events that produced clays, and relatively new—geologically speaking—gullies carved into the shadowed rim of a southern crater. “We have another new Mars,” said Steve Saunders, MRO program scientist at NASA’s Washington D.C. headquarters, in a mission briefing. “Every time we go to Mars with a new set of instruments, we see a different planet.” MRO used its imaging spectrometer to examine a 3,500-foot (1,066-meter) cliff in Chasma Boreale, an expansive valley that juts into Mars’ northern polar ice cap. The orbiter found a cap of ice covering atop a series of layers that alternate between ice-rich and dust-rich bands, suggesting relatively recent environmental and climate changes. “At the north polar ice cap over the last 100,000 or so years, there’s been a really dynamic history of changes reported in layers of ice much like we would determine Earth’s climate change and looking at a core of ice from Greenland,” said Scott Murchie, of Johns Hopkins University’s Applied Physics Laboratory, who serves as lead scientist for MRO’s imaging spectrometer. The imaging spectrometer also spied a wide range of mineral-rich clays on Mars in a region known as Mawrth Valles; some rich in iron while others nearby contained aluminum. “Clay tells us that the surface was wet, and differences in the mineralogy tells us how the environment may have been different from place to place,” Murchie said, adding that differences in clay composition can indicate variations in water temperature, salinity and other characteristics in the site’s pa <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Oct 16, 2006

I just sharpened this one. PIA01923 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

Kalstang · Oct 17, 2006

WOW is right......................... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. "Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~ Guns dont kill people. People kill people.Solar System </div>

Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars / New Phoenix Lander results

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