Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars / New Phoenix Lander results

[rlb2]

Thanks, here is some more natural Martian driftwood-like artwork. The thing I would guess at that made this<br /> was an extended period of an alluvial type flow? Geologically speaking it looks like it was made very recently? <br />I have however seen molten metal, when it cooled rapidly, that looked similar? <br /><br />Another thing that strikes me as a bit odd in this image is the oval shaped shallow depth hole, lower right, in<br /> an area that appears to be cut out by a wirlpool vortex-like running water???<br /><br />Enlarged section of 2P194011243EL5M1 <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[JonClarke]

That last image is just so amazing and beautiful. Thanj you!<br /><br />We can't hazard a guess at the age of these features until we have some idea of rate of surface processes operating at this scale. Which we don't. I would guess that ythese features are still being shaped now, but I could be wrong, very easily.<br /><br />As to water, yest the surface texture is similar to what you sometimes see ion surfaces water has been flowing over. But you see similar textures on wind eroded or just weathered surfaces as well. You have to look at the context.<br /><br />The horn-like feature is more consistent with wind erosion and weathering, the location of the features on the side of a rise, and the complete absence of any channel morphology at the scale of the rover and MOC imagery suggests that wind and weathering are the primary agents.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

Thanks for your professional opinion on that. It had just enough there to stretch my alluvial imagination, I saw sharp upstream and rounded downstream looking rocks, a flat eddy current like hole created by a hydraulic - rafters term. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

Thanks, the hole could have settled sediment in it that makes it appear flat and be more rounded out below the sediment. It would need a good brushing to verify that.<br /><br />29 new color images at weekly update at.<br /><br />http://members.cox.net/mars.images/index.htm <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

1P194586253EL5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[bonzelite]

^^^the points well made you make mention of are really the drumroll we're frustratingly kept from knowing. some of the features look downright moist or muddy, like granular play-doh.

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">have you seen any info. regarding whether the smooth, featureless looking spots (for example, in the lower left area) of 1P193959975EL5M1<font color="white"><br /><br />Only what we had to say here, myself I'm a littled puzelled by the experts take on this. See some of the earlier images I posted in this thread, they have the same pooling looking features, like the ones at the link below???<br /><br />http://members.cox.net/skyclimbers/1P153127970EL5M1.jpg<br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[bonzelite]

in the link, the first image of the uppermost left. there are sediment deposits running as streaks over the bright rock surfaces to the end of the rock. it appears, as well, that the sediments were carried down the rock face to collect at the bottom. <br /><br />the question arises: does the wind move sediments down rock faces in narrow streaks like this and then create collection pools at the bottom?<br /> <br />-does the wind stain rocks with sedimentary deposits in narrow streaks? <br /><br />-does the wind move sediment in narrow bands across flat surfaces to a common area of deposit, as in a puddle or ponding area? <br /><br />-is this evidence of unique martian wind patterns, unlike on the earth, that create delicate and discreet narrow bands of movement across surfaces that move sediments in narrow bands?<br /><br />-is this movement of wind, then, staining surfaces over hundreds of years in the same narrow band?

 

[JonClarke]

Those "pools" as you call them are really interesting. To me they look like degressions, often linear, full of fine sediment. In some areas they pass laterally into cracked bedrock where the fine material clearly fills cracks.<br /><br />What this suggests to me is that the bedrock blocks are moving separately, as they move apart dirt falls into them. This happens even when there is a shallow cover of dirt, causing the depressions in the soil. this is very interesting, as it shows that the surface is active. Thermal contraction and expansion is the most likely explanation.<br /><br />The fill in the cracks is entirely dust or fine sand. No larger granules. To me this suggests that the granule-rich soil is slightly indurated, so that coarse material does not fall into the cracks. It also suggests that there has not been any transport of coarser material by wind since the cracks and their fills formed.<br /><br />All this looks recent, but what recent means on Mars is anybody's guess! My guess is that the features are seasonal, possibly annual. But it's a guess!<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

"the points well made you make mention of are really the drumroll we're frustratingly kept from knowing."<br /><br />What are we being kept from knowing, who by, and what is your evidence that this is happening?<br /><br />As for the stuff looking moist, remember this is a poor criterion to use. "Looking moist" usually means having a sheen or being darker than the surroundings. there are lots of things that can do that. If there really was moisture there it would stand out like a dogs hind leg in the mini-TES. It would be such an exciting discovery I can't see it being kept guiet for more than a few days (as the spectral was checked and double checked) before there would be a big release. <br /><br />Jon <br /><br />Edited for additional content <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Nice collection of images! Lot's of interesting stuff here. Since they don't seem to have identifiers, I will call them<br /><br />A B<br />C D<br />E F<br />G H<br /><br />A: It's important to realise that this image is actually tilted because it is part of the inside wall of Endurance. The dark material is clearly mobile sand, as it forms ripples. It is probably haematite rich.<br /><br />I agree with bonze, those streaks look really odd. I too find it hard to imagine wind making such straight markings. However they don't really look like the result of flowing water either, as some seem to march straight over low obstacles rather than diverting round them, as you would expect a water flow. Wind-driven flowing sand on a slope can also pool, so is not in itself an indicator of water. An important feature is that the orientation of the streaks is parallel to the many fractures. It is possible they represent subtle structural features in the rock that can trap wind blown sand. So I would prefer wind over water for these but I would say that I am only about 70% confident, so 40% wind, 30% water, 30% unknown. But isn't it a beautiful site?<br /><br />B: Nothing to remarkable here (ecept being on Mars that is). A large radial fracture with coarse gravity-fed talus in in it and a local veneer of fine, haematite sand which is also present in some nearby bedrock depressions.<br /><br />C: Pachydermally weathered (isn't that a lovely expression?) with drifts of winblown haematitic sand round the base, overlying coarser slope material.<br /><br />D: Small drifts of haematitic sand round bedrock blocks in the foreground, sparse wind ripples of the same material on lower crater wall slope beyond.<br /><br />E: A lovely image showing the depression between two large blocks with thin sand over coarse blueberry rich soil. What is nice is the thin ridges on either side of the depression indicating that there has been induration of the edges. Such delicate fretting of rock surface <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

<font color="yellow"><br />"the points well made you make mention of are really the drumroll we're frustratingly kept from knowing." <br /><br />What are we being kept from knowing, who by, and what is your evidence that this is happening? </font><br /><br />i don't mean in a conspirational sense. you mistook me. i meant we are all, layperson and scientist alike, still in the dark on mars' secrets, particularly about groundwater. the MERs are not uncovering everything, and what they have, is in a mountain of data that may not be fully analyzed for years. <br /><br />the darker regions of soil that appear to be in hollows or in recently evaporated puddles may be anything, yes. the tilled up soil in some of these areas does look cakelike, similar to moist sand or playdoh, some of it sticking to the rover's wheels as if it were clumped or like cake. bone dry sand would not exhibit this behavior, or would it? you're the geologist. <br /><br />i'm assuming the TES stands for Thermal Emission Spectrometer. is there raw data available from that posted anywhere? <br /><br />

 

[JonClarke]

Raw data from the missions (including min-TES) can be found at the Mer Analyst's Notebook site (http://anserver1.eprsl.wustl.edu/). Data to Sol 540 is available (release 7). The next release (to Sol 630) will occur in April.<br /><br />I suspect the some of playdough material you see is very fine dust. This can cake and clump in a way that is remarkably like wet material. certainly the heaviour of the material in wheel ruts and that caught up on the wheels looks just like this.<br /><br />One of the great unsung research programs on all lander missions are the materials properties experiments. They investiagte the mechanical strengths of different materials in different planes, elcrtical and magnetic properties, grainsizes, etc. Not very glamerous, some people even complain that the instruments are a waste of space. But they provide vital information on surface conditions and for the design of future missions.<br /><br />Jon <br /><br />edited with additional material <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

ok, noted. <br /><br />my knee-jerk reaction off the pure visual data is hydrogen bonds among the granules, as those bonds are very sticky.

 

[silylene old]

Jon - thanks. I really enjoyed reading your descriptions and gazing over rlb's beautiful pictures. I learn something everytime.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">I agree with bonze, those streaks look really odd. I too find it hard to imagine wind making such straight markings. However they don't really look like the result of flowing water either, as some seem to march straight over low obstacles rather than diverting round them, as you would expect a water flow. Wind-driven flowing sand on a slope can also pool, so is not in itself an indicator of water. An important feature is that the orientation of the streaks is parallel to the many fractures. It is possible they represent subtle structural features in the rock that can trap wind blown sand. So I would prefer wind over water for these but I would say that I am only about 70% confident, so 40% wind, 30% water, 30% unknown. But isn't it a beautiful site? </font><br /><br />I have a third explanation, maybe: perhaps in certain seasons or certain Martian epochs "moist" air blows over the cold rippled slabs in a well defined streak pattern, and preferentially deposits a thin frost where it blows. The thin frost then oxidizes the underlying mineral, forming a darker color. ("moist" is a relative term, given the thin arid Martian atmosphere) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

^^^very smart idea, by the way. i'm impressed. <br /><br />dunno if it's true, but it sounds plausible. the frost, then, once formed in streaks or bands, per your idea, may trap windblown granules onto it like fly paper. furthermore, the streaks (at least to me) look carried down the shallow angle of the flat rocks' surfaces by some fluvial action, wind or water.

 

[bonzelite]

JonClarke, would fluid divert around shallow obstacles if the outflow were sudden and highly pressurized, as if from a geothermally brief spraying out onto the surface, then rapidly pouring down? <br /><br />i'm trying to shoehorn liquidity into the picture because it's exciting to imagine a Yellowstone Park on mars. <br /><br />

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">Nice collection of images! Lot's of interesting stuff here. Since they don't seem to have identifiers, I will call them A B C D E F G H <font color="white"><br /><br /><br />Thanks for your summation on those images. Of what I am seeing, one of my confusions lies with the hematite, one of the reasons they sent Oppy there in the first place - grey color said to have formed in water. <br /><br />Even the red color hematite would then also be suspect since it appears to be a common belief now that wind and water played a role in the past at Meridian. The grey hematite can be turned back into red hematite, (smaller particles thus light absorption is different) by wind erosion over the eons by grinding down the grey material to a finer grain soil, yet there are still grey hematite present, an example of that are the Grey Berries (Blueberries - Sperules)???<br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange"> The 3rd frame down of theimage you posted is fascinating.... in particular the sluice - like feature with the vertical thin wall like slabs. Really amazing! It would be nice to know if there has been any attempts to have a very close look at some of these small specific features;<font color="white"><br /><br />I believe that was called the "razorbacks" it drew a lot of excitement when it was first imaged, some speculated that it was formed by some kind of seepage or flowing liquid - I don't know what the final scientific results were with spectro reading that came out of that?<br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Well geothermal systems are hot stuff! And it would be exciting to find one on Mars, for sure. <br /><br />My experience of geysers (and was looking at some a couple of weeks ago) is that the jets of water tend to spread rather than being very concentrated. Also, over time they tend to go in a range of directions, aided by variable wind directions. So I don't think they can explain these streaks. <br /><br />The other thing to remember is geothermal systems are always asscoiated with active volcanism. There is no sign of this at Meridiani. If we were looking at the Cerberus region it might be different.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

then a full survey of Cerberus is in order. where is it? <br /><br />about the deposits in rivulets/streaks, something mechanical created these features. so what did? i'm dying to know. my earthly bias says rivulets of water deposited these streaks that then terminated in a small pool at the edge of the rocks at bottom. the outflow of the deposits has left behind directional features that are highly specific and structured. so there was a flow there; the leftover sediments have created a one-way flow profile that is blatantly visible. <br /><br />but by what means for god's sake?! this is killing me. <br /><br />and the stacked shale-like sedimentary rock formations: what about those? recent ideas suggest volcanism as the sculptural process? or impact? both? the sedimentary layers look like something you'd find by a creekside. <br /><br />so as i said earlier ---this is the longest drumroll in history. we have a harvest feast in front of our starving eyes and we cannot eat it. there is a glass barrier between us and mars. it's fooling the living hell out of us all.

 

[JonClarke]

Glad you like what i say <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />. But really I am just doing some informed guesses here!<br /><br />Thermal volume changes will produce a wide range of patterned ground. if there is ice present this just expedites the process. We don't know whether ice is present here - and it seems unlikely given the low latitude - so it is best just to just thermal changes.<br /><br />Whjy only fine-gained material between the blocks? Perhaps, as I suggested, only fine-grained material (sand and dust) has been moving recently.<br /><br />Large objects might sink into the fine material, but I doubt it. If anything they would float, especially if there is movement going on. Just like the biggest conflakes always going to the top. This also supports the contention that these are very recent features.<br /><br />On the smallest scale the surface of Mars is quite active. There were slips at the Viking site, and I do recall things moving round in the rover images. Not only is there wind but also the rovers stirring things up as well. I remember Spirit caused a small sand slide at one station in the Columbia Hills.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Yeah, grey haematite. I think this was a poor choice of terminology.<br /><br />Haematite is Fe2O3. It's colour varies according to crystal size. If it is coarse-grained it tends to look grey or black. if you powder it it is red. Fine-grained hametaite (natural powder) is also red. Coarse-grained (grey) haematite has a slightly different spectral signature to fine-grained (red) haematite because of its greater crystallinity.<br /><br />Almost all forms of haematite require liquid water (although magmatic haematite has been reported, although rare). Coarse-grained (grey) haematite tends to form in higher temperature environments such as hydrothermal systems, whereas fine-grained (red) haematite tends to form at low temperatures during sedimentation and weathering. Diagnetic haematite forms at intermediate temperatures and can be either. However some fine-grained haematite formed in weathering is very compact and can mimic coarse-grained haematite spectrally.<br /><br />"Grey" haematite areas on Mars were of great interest for the lander missions as they appeared to offer a very high liklihood of liquid water. The grey haematite was thoguth to most likely point to past hydrothermal systems, very interesting because of their role as possible abodes of life.<br /><br />Thus a "grey haematite" area was slected for one of the MER rovers and the greatest interest was in the astrobiological implications. of course things did not quite pan out that way. they found compact, fairly fine-grained diagenetic haematite rather than coarse hydrothermal haematite. But the philosophy behind the site selection was robust, so they certainly did find an area that had abundant evidence of a long history of surface and ground water, of which the haematite story is a small part.<br /><br />Jon<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Yep, they are the razor backs. they are most likely vein fills or selvedges, probably haematite (some certainly are). they do point to fluid migration, but probably well before the exhumation of the area.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Cerebrus is SE of Elysium Mons, Athabasca Vallis, an early MER candiate site was here, but was ruled out, I think because of safety issues. Oh well, on another mission...<br /><br />I still am puzzled by the streaks in A. the only things that really look like them are the streaks on compact rocks like granite, for example these at Wave Rock in WA . These are formed by capillary films of flowing water (which is why they seem to defy gravity), the black colour comes from Fr and Mn precipiates.<br /><br />The problem is while they don't need a long of water, they do require some, more than seems likely at the moment, and enough to generate other features which we don't see - like fans, meandering gullies, sapping features. It's all very odd.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>