The first Inter-Planetary Vehicle

[dryson]

The first part of the Pilyhas (pronounced pie len hoss)would be the ORION command module.The module would remain unchanged except for the following:<br /><br />1.The rear heat shield would be removed and replaced <br /> with the same material that the command module is <br /> made of the reason being is the CM once docked to <br /> (inter-connecting multi purpose logistics module) <br /> would become a permanent fixture.<br /><br />2.The rear part of the CM would have to have a docking <br /> mechanism designed into it to allow the CM crew <br /> access to the rest of ship. The docking system <br /> installed would be the Active APAS docking mechanism.<br /><br />3. The internal arrangements of the CM would need to <br /> be re-arranged to allow for the docking system to be <br /> installed.This would be rather simple to overcome as <br /> the need for the systems used with ORION as a <br /> stand alone capsule where the functions of <br /> operating other systems such as science and <br /> communications would be placed further up the <br /> design process.<br /><br />The next stage will be the IMPLM or inter-connecting multi-purpose logistics module. Although not a functioning module as the MPLM is the IMPLM will use the same dimensions as the MPLM due to this reason:<br /><br />1. By using the same MPLM design for the IMPLM design <br /> the cost of having to design a new type of structural <br /> support would be halved. The only difference <br /> between the MPLM and the IMPLM would that the <br /> IMPLM would be four feet long. <br /> The IMPLM would be the same diameter as the <br /> MPLM. Extra internal structural supports would also <br /> be added to the inside of the IMPLM. This will help <br /> spread out the torsion effect placed upon the <br /> docking mechanism when the main engine fires. To <br /> further add support to this module, cargo storage. <br /> This cargo storage area could be used to store <br /> p

 

[nibb31]

Many questions and comments, but for a start:<br />- Going to the moon or Mars doesn't make it inter-stellar but inter-planetary.<br />- Why use an Orion capsule if your vehicle doesn't reenter ? <br />- It looks like you forgot the most important part: the rocket stages required to go the the moon and back, and stay in earth orbit. This means an Earth departure stage,a Mars/Lunar Orbit Insertion stage, then a Mars/Lunar departure stage, and an Earth orbit insertion stage. This will basically make it twice the size of a Saturn V in orbit. That will require LOTS of orbital assembly, much more than the ISS.<br />

 

[dryson]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Many questions and comments, but for a start: <br />- Going to the moon or Mars doesn't make it inter-stellar but inter-planetary. <br />- Why use an Orion capsule if your vehicle doesn't reenter ? <br />- It looks like you forgot the most important part: the rocket stages required to go the the moon and back, and stay in earth orbit. This means an Earth departure stage,a Mars/Lunar Orbit Insertion stage, then a Mars/Lunar departure stage, and an Earth orbit insertion stage. This will basically make it twice the size of a Saturn V in orbit. That will require LOTS of orbital assembly, much more than the ISS. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Thank you for the correct terminology. What this vehicle is meant to achieve is taking as much cargo to the Moon as possible at one time. Now since the MPLM is a habitat component of the ISS this same module could be used as a habitat module on the moon. When the Pilyhas has reached the Moon or Mars, the MPLM would be jettisoned and descend to the moon by using the new lunar lander, Altair. The Pilyhas would remain in a higher orbit then normal to not consume as much fuel as an orbital burn would.<br /><br />The ORION command module would be the best module to use as it is cost effective to manufacture and if needed could be used as an escape pod if something were to go wrong with the rest of the ship.<br /><br />This ship would be built in space just like the ISS has been. That is another reason why I choosen the MPLM as the module system for the ship. The MPLM can be carriered in the cargo bay of the shuttle. The engine configuration that you speak of may take more then my knowledge to design and any help when I get to that stage would be appreciated. But the basis for the fuel storage is going to be based off of the same MPLM module design. This way the fuel module could be carriered in the same manner as the other ISS parts are, in the cargo bay of the Shuttle. Let me finish the

 

[dryson]

The third stage in the design would be the actual MPLM itself. There are several reasons that I have decided to use this ISS station component part.<br /><br />1. The MPLM is already a design that has been proven <br /> to meet or exceed the needs of a module operating <br /> in a spacial medium.<br />2. Relatively easy and cost effective to manufacture.<br />3. The MPLM is already designed with the fore and aft <br /> section.capable of using a docking mechanism <br /> system.<br /><br />The fore section of the module would have the Passive APAS docking mechanism installed. This system would mate with the Active APAS docking mechansim of the IMPLM.<br /><br />The aft section of the module would have the Active APAS docking mechanism installed.<br /><br />This first module would be designated as the crew quarters (CQ), where the jettisonable waste management system, sleeper units along with food storage and communications unit would be located. <br /><br />A cupola could be fitted at one of the MPLM hatches on the outside of the module to assist in the docking of the modules if so needed for viewing purposes.

 

[nibb31]

MPLM modules are a dead end. The shuttle is retiring in 2010 and the flight manifest is set in stone now. So there is no way to put your MPLM modules in orbit.<br /><br />Without the shuttle any new large construction task will have to be devised with autonomous modules (like Mir or the russian section of the ISS) that have their own propulsion and rendez-vous hardware, or with a reusable space tug that is in itself a major development task.<br /><br />You are still lacking the propulsion modules that will have to be <br /><br />The more mass your ship has, the larger the propulsion stages have to be. Look at the size of the current EDS stage designed for just an Orion and one Altair lander. You are proposing at least twice that mass, plus you want an extra rocket stage to brake into LEO.<br /><br />The hard part of designing a space craft isn't how you dock the various modules together. The hard part is getting the payload mass to fit within the requirements of the rocket stages.<br /><br />I'm sorry but in the current state of technology, your idea isn't feasible. <br /><br />Think of it this way: <br />1) To get a 1 ton spacecraft to brake into earth orbit on a lunar return trajectory, you need a 5 ton earth orbit insertion stage rocket. 5+1=6.<br />2) To get your 6 ton spacecraft to leave lunar orbit to return to earth, you need a 25 ton lunar departure stage rocket. 25+6=31<br />3) To send your 31 ton ship to the moon, you now need a 150 ton earth departure stage. <br /><br />This gives you 1:150 ratio. Make your interplanetary ship 50 tons with a couple of MPLM modules, an Orion CM and an Altair lander, for example, and you will need to put 7500 tons into orbit. That's the equivalent of approx 75 Ares V flights or 375 shuttle flights.<br /><br />All that for one flight to the Moon. Double or triple that mass for a trip to Mars.<br /><br />This is basically why Apollo and Constellation use direct reentry from the moon and do not brake into earth orbit.

 

[hk8900]

I suggest using Bigelow inflatable modules as the backbone of the habitable part of the ship<br />This can save launch mass, no Saturn V class LV required<br />perhaps 3 EELV/Falcon9-H launches are enough FOR ASSEMBLY OF THE HABITABLE PART

 

[samkent]

The command module as an escape pod???<br /><br />Without the service module you would have but a few hours of O2. And verrrry limited manuverablity.<br /><br />You are better off designing a purpose craft.

 

[j05h]

MPLM modules are designed to be in orbit for short durations - they are only guaranteed for several weeks or a month onorbit. They lack life support and other critical factors. Alenia Aerospatiale, the MPLM's builder, could probably make similar, long-duration modules as needed. There is still a critical gap in getting it into space after STS retires.<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>- Why use an Orion capsule if your vehicle doesn't reenter ? <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Otherwise you need a lot of expensive fuel to burn on your way back to earth just to get in Earth orbit.<br /><br />Taking the Orion (the vehicle used to reenter Earth's atmosphere) allows you to reenter Earth's atmosphere without Earth orbit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[dryson]

Between the CQMPLM and the next module would be another IMPLM with the same docking mechanism detail described in the connection process of the CM. <br /><br />The second module would be the electronics and equipment module to control the various energy functions of the ship. From this location all primary electronic control functions would be routed to their appropriate systems. Along with secondary and third stage backup systems in case of primary electronic unit malfunction. This module is where the main digital comm, life support and other attached systems would have their focal point at.<br /><br />The docking mechanism configuration for the EEMPLM is the same as the same as the CQMPLM.<br /><br />Now another topic that needs to be discussed is what type of long range and short range communications gear would be needed and could be used without taking up extra space.<br /><br />Now the next module is going to be as tricky to design as the fuel storage module and engine but with a little imagination I'm sure it can be accomplished.<br /><br />The next module would be the SAMPLM or Solar collection Array module. This module would have to be able to either have solar paneling built around the the entire circumferance of the hull or be able to have the collaspeable paneling like that of the station called Sky Lab. This is the second main system that if designed correctly would make the ship work. <br /><br />

 

[dryson]

Now what I envisioned the SAMPLM to look like is the following:<br /><br />1.Photovoltaic (module) cells would cover the circumferance of the surface of the module<br /><br />2.The module would have the Photovoltaic cells mounted at the hatches of the SAMPLM. The cells would then be either to be able to be hand cranked or electronically controlled from the inside of the ship. This set-up would allow the mission crew to attach all four solar arrays to provide enough power for a trip to Mars or one or three solar arrays for the trip to the moon. This module would not have to be as large as the other modules which would reduce the overall length and mass of the ship as a whole.

 

[dryson]

Now comes the cargo module stages.<br /><br />I have looked at several of the design critiques and have come up with various solutions to the problem of the mass of the ship.<br /><br />All MPLM's mentioned here will have the Passive APAS docking system installed at the fore end of the module with the Active APAS docking mechanism installed at the eft end of the module.<br /><br />The fist module is the basic MPLM with the following particulars:<br /><br />*note: all modules are said to be empty and without the<br /> docking mechanism installed.<br /><br />MPLM<br />Length (height):6.4 M (251.9685", 20.9974')<br />Width (diameter):4.57 M (179.9212", 14.9934')<br />Mass: 4,082 kg empty<br /> 13,154 kg empty<br /><br />IMPLM (inter-connecting logistics module)<br /><br />Length (height): 1.2192 M (48.0000", 4.0000')<br />Width (diameter): 4.57 M (179.9212", 14.9934')<br />Mass: need help figuring this out.<br /><br />MPLM1A<br /><br />Length (height): 3.2000 M (125.9844", 10.4987')<br />Width (diameter): 4.57 M (179.9212", 14.9934')<br />Mass: need help figuring this out.<br /><br />MPLM2A<br /><br />Length (height): 1.6000 M (62.9928", 5.2495")<br />Width (diameter): 4.57 M (179.9212", 14.9934')<br />Mass: need help figuring this out.<br /><br />Each module could have the balloon cushioning system added to descent to the moon.<br /><br />The reason that the MPLM's have been re-designed is because I was thinking, what is the most feasible way of getting them to the surface of the Moon, Mars or other planet? I started looking at new lander vehicle designs and thought why not use the Altair for the basis of the cargo module lander. The design works with the current docking mechanism of the Orion which has the same docking mechanism's of all of the modules of the Pilyhas project. To necessitate the Atair 2 as a cargo lander though some minor desing changes would need to be incorporated. These changes are as follows:<br /><br />1. The Altair 2 will have to have the landing leg and structural s

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>1.The rear heat shield would be removed and replaced<br />with the same material that the command module is<br />made of the reason being is the CM once docked to<br />(inter-connecting multi purpose logistics module)<br />would become a permanent fixture.<br /><p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Are you trying to give it a flight deck? I think one flight deck would be too cumbersome. This thing sounds big, so why not just command it from a laptop? Then you can have your 'flight deck' anywhere in your living space. Or you could have one of the Orion's docking to it assume command and navigational functions. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Without the service module you would have but a few hours of O2. And verrrry limited manuverablity.<br /><p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />You mean electricity. Carbon Dioxide scrubbers work off of electricity. Orion SM will have solar panels. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[holmec]

Since your ship is so big and your using MPLMs are you going to load up a couple of crews and their Orion capsules and a couple of Altair's? It seems to me a permanent ship needs to carry bulk to be cost effective, or come somewhere near cost effective. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[dryson]

Are you trying to give it a flight deck? I think one flight deck would be too cumbersome. This thing sounds big, so why not just command it from a laptop? Then you can have your 'flight deck' anywhere in your living space. Or you could have one of the Orion's docking to it assume command and navigational functions. <br /><br /><br />Lol, she will not have a flight deck. This ship will be for the sole purpose transporting modules to the moon along with consumables and other cargo related items. <br /><br />I have re-designed the MPLM's as you can see above. I really dont think the cargo modules would need to be that large but the mission would dictate the type of MPLM to use. But at least one full MPLM will be fitted as mentioned in the first stage. This will be the Crew Quarters. All cargo modules that will be fitted will be mission specific to the total volume of the cargo being moved to the Moon or Mars.

 

[dryson]

You mean electricity. Carbon Dioxide scrubbers work off of electricity. Orion SM will have solar panels.<br /><br />Would these panels be able to be located in the same position that I have specified for the Photo cells?

 

[holmec]

are you trying to upload pictures? Because I can't see any. Picture here would help me a lot. <br /><br />I'm working on my own tug idea, and I started to use Google Sketch which is an easy 3D modeling program for free. Maybe some you can make some illustrations. You can't upload currently but if you load them on to your own website and the link the pics, that works. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[dryson]

For the engine suite I have selected the Block DM-5L (11D58m) engine. It is roughly the same size (3.9m in diamter by 6.2m in length) as the MPLM (4.57m in diameter by 6.4 meters in length) With a little engineering this engine could be fitted to the aft section of an MPLM by use of an adapter module like that of the ARES I.

 

[dryson]

I have downloaded the Sketch prog. I also have the Blender prog but my pc lacks the ass to run it.

 

[dryson]

The design for this ship has been nixed. The main reason is the MPLM has only one hatch in which to dock to.<br /><br />Instead I have chosen the following nodes to replace the MPLM.<br /><br />The Harmony (node 2) <br />Node 3<br />The Columbus science node hull<br /><br />

 

[qso1]

dryson:<br />The MPLM can be carriered in the cargo bay of the shuttle.<br /><br />Me:<br />may not necessarily have to design around shuttle MPLMs. With shuttle retiring in about three years, you may need to size to the payload fairing of an Aries-V or Delta-IV heavy. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[dryson]

dryson: <br />The MPLM can be carriered in the cargo bay of the shuttle. <br /><br />Me: <br />may not necessarily have to design around shuttle MPLMs. With shuttle retiring in about three years, you may need to size to the payload fairing of an Aries-V or Delta-IV heavy. <br /><br />That day will be sad yet will usher in a new age from an old age. It will be exciting. It will still be sad to see the old bird just sitting as a display, her glory and spendor of yor gone but not forgotten.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />This design has been re-worked. I failed to see that the MPLM only has one useable hatch and was rated for a tour in space of 180 days.<br /><br />The MPLM has been replaced with the Harmony, Node 3 and the Columbus Science module. The Columbus Science module would need to be re-wroked to allow for fuel storage but would work. <br /><br />The engine would need to be capable of pulse propelling the ship (turning the engine off and on until the needed velocity was achieved) to the Moon and to Mars. The engine would also need to be able to not create a force on the docking mechanisms of each node or module that would twist the whole ship causing catastraphic failure of the docking mechanisms.<br /><br />I beleives the ORION module engine the AeroJet AJ10 would be sufficant for this purpose.<br /><br />This is how the set-up would go <br /><br />ORION CM = Harmony(node 2)=(connecting adapter) = Harmony(node2)=(connecting adapter) = node 3 =(connecting adapter)= Columbus Science module (the shell only)=(connecting adapter)=Engine suite (AJ10?)<br /><br />Cupola could be fitted at the any of the twelve hatches on the Harmony and node 3 modules along with modified cargo containers meant to dock at the hatches. The hatches could also be used for modified expieriment, communications, solar array or robotic arm docking. In this type of configuration the ship could be used for many multi-specific tasks.

 

[dryson]

Here is a question that is one of the three most important design questions involving this design.<br /><br />In order to create a more stable frame for the ship, attachment points of the nodes must be created in order for the connecting adapters to be fitted and then bolted on. Is it feasible for astronaughts to wrench these bolts on in space? <br /><br />or<br /><br />Would it be more practicle to fit two modules with supporting structure between the two modules and then send them into space in the payload bay of ARES - V?

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>In order to create a more stable frame for the ship, attachment points of the nodes must be created in order for the connecting adapters to be fitted and then bolted on. Is it feasible for astronaughts to wrench these bolts on in space?<br /><p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Why use threaded bolts? Why not come up with a locking system that can be robotically handled? You may want to consider why you want such a strong construct. IOW look at your compression and your tension forces and see what you really need. <br /><br />What happens when the main thrusters fire? what happens when RCS thrusters fire? What happens when something hits the ship on its side?<br /><br />Think about how big of a risk it is for astronauts to bolt stuff in constructing your craft and how much cost that is. IMO The more automation you do the less time you need for humans to work on it. Human labor in space is very costly. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>