Why Heinlein Really Ruled

[Grok]

It wasn't Heinlein's technical clarity. There were better technicians like Asimov who could explain the intricacies of life in a technically advanced society. It wasn't Heinlein's great creative vision. Bradbury could evoke soul stirring images of the Martians in the Martian Chronicles. Heinlein's strength was his characters. They were people who lived on the edge of correct. Notice how people come together in a Heinlein book. They are all specialized, compartmentalized, until they interact, and then we realize how wide these characters are, that they have depth and understanding. They've thought seriously about a wide array of subjects. There may be a physics expert in the room, but there's 3 or 4 others who can hold their own in the conversation, and at any moment the conversation can turn to what the cat is doing or why religion is useful. Heinlein loved to explore through the interactions and conversations of groups. Read the Number of the Beast and you see Heinlein introducing a computer into human conversation, and the humans accepting this new mode of discourse, and making Gay Deceiver their own. The characters also can transform at any time. So Lazarus Long can go back in time to become a soldier in WW I, while Gay Deceiver becomes Minerva in human form. Lazarus is the ultimate storyteller. The elder of the human race, and the new generations hang on his every word as if he's a precious gem, but his most powerful words are "therza pool yawl by the pawn shot". In Tunnel in the Sky, we again have a situation of the one character thrown suddenly into community and harsh realities have to be met through interactions. In Farnham's Freehold we have a group of people discussing whether they have been blasted into another dimension by a direct nuclear hit, or perhaps thrown into the future. Farnham's wife is cracking up, so Farnham does the only thing a man should do when he's in the far into the future in the middle of a wilderness. He takes the

 

[wmdragon]

havent read that much Heinlein (Job,I Will Fear No Evil, and SIASL) but I think you are right on. his works seems a new type of morality play.<br /><br />coincidence: I just went thru my novel collection looking for my next read, and came up with <i>Farnham's Freehold</i>. havent started it yet. thing is, nowadays I have very little time to read, need to prioritize, so I want to read books that are high quality and interest me a lot. some of the titles listed in the recommendation threads here appeal to me more than Farnham's Freehold at this point. would you - or any members who have read it - just recommend it, or <i>highly</i> recommend it? does it stand on its own without <i>On the Beach</i>? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#993366"><em>The only laws of matter are those which our minds must fabricate, and the only laws of mind are fabricated for it by matter.</em> <br /> --- James Clerk Maxwell</font></p> </div>

 

[Grok]

I thought <i>Farnham's Freehold</i> was very good. Of course I read it when nuclear war seemed like a real possibility. I don't know what a modern reading would be like. It's funny you mention that book though because I recommended it to Rocketwatcher just the other day. I'm Heinlein biased, so I pretty much have liked everything he's written. I even managed to stomach <i>Glory Road</i> although it was far from typical Heinlein. I'm going back and rereading some of the older Heinlein's yet again. Most of them still hold up. I just got done with <i>The Day After Tomorrow</i> or <i>The Sixth Column</i>. Still good. I'm in the middle of <i>Revolt in 2100</i> and am enjoying it very much. I just like Heinlein I guess.

 

[Grok]

crazyeddie,<br /><br />That's Heinlein's signature, always confronting the unthinkable with calm deliberation. In his heart, he loved survivalism more than anything. Tunnel in the Sky is all about survivalism. Starship Troopers is just a kid trying to survive in a reality where survival is unthinkable. I think he was just saying that human beings will do whatever it takes to survive. He was also a bit of a weirdo, I'll admit. But above all he wanted to accept cold reality and keep on going. Even Lazarus Long had to find new ways to survive after 3000 years and much boredom.

 

[lunatic133]

I'm at the moment reading The Moon is a Harsh Mistress although time for reading is short as I'm in the middle of orientation and stuff <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I think it's good so far, although the group marriages are a little ... weird. Heh heh. And also they seem to put a lot of emphasis on the idea that if you spend too much time on the moon, you will NEVER be able to survive on Earth gravity again. This is most likely true for people born on the moon, but I seriously doubt it for people who just spend a few months there ... I mean astronauts on the ISS adapt in time, right?

 

[wmdragon]

survalism is a great source of stories, even more thought-provoking when put in the extreme, weird contexts of scifi. cannibalism, incest, murder, cowardice, humiliation ... what would <b>you</b> do to keep going? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#993366"><em>The only laws of matter are those which our minds must fabricate, and the only laws of mind are fabricated for it by matter.</em> <br /> --- James Clerk Maxwell</font></p> </div>

 

[Grok]

kpsting,<br /><br />If Heinlein didn't rule, then who did and why?

 

[avaunt]

I think he was pretty good, when taken in context of the times.<br /><br />Compared to Ian M Banks, Greg Egan, David Brin, Vernor Vinge, and many another modern writer though, Heinlein was a kiddies story expert. His understanding of MECHANICAL science, and what we might consider MECHANICAL humanity, was pretty impressive, but real complexity was something that came about long after his time.<br /><br />I really liked his stories, when I was a teenager.

 

[spacester]

IMO definitely not any kind of a fair comparison. Talk about standing on the shoulders of giants, I'd wager every one of those authors would cringe at the thought of "outclassing" the masters.<br /><br />There is no question Heinlein was one of the masters.<br /><br />There is no question Heinlein ruled at least a solid section of the world of Science Fiction. Was he the one writer to rule them all? Um, no.<br /><br />I loved Robert Anson Heinlein, but not even I am going to put him "above" Asimov and Clarke just for starters.<br /><br />grok, i agree with your beautiful maga-paragraph, but the writer did have a few annoying habits. There were a couple of novellas he never really wrote an ending for. He would just kind of wander off on a tangent and pontificate on something and call it an ending. Or wonder off on sheer nostalgia. Rather maudlin some of it.<br /><br />Asimov did not permit even the occasional sloppiness, nor did Clarke or Bradbury.<br /><br />Still, his brilliance when at his best means RAH is in my top five, maybe top four even, on my all time list.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[avaunt]

Well , I don't think it was UN-fair, anyway. Unfair would have entailed me pointing out he suffered from the same drive that Hemmingway suffered from, small mans disease, in a Big-Mans country.<br /><br />Hemmingway PUNCHED his way around the fact that his soul was small, clinging for dear life, and ultimately, sour death, to the "Mans" framework of booze, boxing broads and brawling, with the obvious prop for all, the Guns. He was known for sucker punching men, that could out think and out talk him. As if his being able to out brutalise them, made up for it.<br /><br />Now, what I see as a Hemmingway trait in our lad Aston, was his deliberate attacking of societies conventions, and attempt to build himself up, by saying others had some sort of FAILING because they would hesitate to break taboos, and he ( represented by his protaganist -the same cardboard cutout most of the time-) was some sort of superman, because he would sleep with his mother because he had run out of other taboos, and was bored. <br /><br />Were I to be unfair, that is. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[Grok]

spacester,<br /><br />Bradbury was definitely more of an artist with words, but he wasn't as prolific as Heinlein. Clarke has a way of shocking the mind. Asimov had master schemes and designs. When I say that Heinlein ruled, I'm thinking of how prolific he was. He just had to write and write all the time. His characters defined what Rush would later refer to as the "New World Man". Restless young men who wanted to run big machines. He defined the free thinker, someone who wasn't bound by the normal conventions of society and could go "outside the box". Heinlein was also highly quotable. He had a great sense of humor. I'm not saying that you have to agree with my assessment of why Heinlein ruled. I'm just explaining why I think Heinlein ruled.

 

[spacester]

Well, fine, yeah, but what I'm saying is that Heinlein Ruled. <br /><br />So there. <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rocketwatcher2001]

I've told Grok before,<br />Farnhams was one of my Dads favorites, just as Starshiptroopers is one of mine, also, Stranger in a Strange Land ranks up there too. If you will allow me I'd like to post what I did in another website, also with my friends. Heinlien on today...even though it was 1973, it is today, also..... The gut feelings are as true today as when I first read it. <br /><br /><b>In this complex world, science, the scientific method, and the consequences of the scientific method are central to everything the human race is doing and to wherever we are going.</b> If we blow ourselves up we will do it by the misapplication of science; if we manage to keep from blowing ourselves up, it will be through intelligent application of science. Science fiction is the only form of fiction which takes into account this central force in our lives and futures. Other sorts of fiction, if they notice science at all, simply deplore it -- an attitude very chichi in the anti-intellectual atmosphere today. But we will never get out of the mess we are in by wringing our hands.<br /><br />Let me make one flat-footed prediction of the science-fiction type. Like all scenarios this one has assumptions -- variables treated as constants. The primary assumption is that World War Three will hold off long enough -- ten, twenty, thirty years -- for this prediction to work out. . .plus a secondary assumption that the human race will not find some other way to blunder into ultimate disaster.<br /><br />Prediction: In the immediate future -- by that I mean in the course of the naval careers of the class of '73 -- there will be nuclear-powered, constant-boost spaceships -- ships capable of going to Mars and back in a couple of weeks -- and these ships will be armed with Buck-Rogerish death rays. Despite all treaties now existing or still to be signed concerning the peaceful use of space, these spaceships will be used in warfare. Space navies will change beyond recognition our present methods of <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[dougdegraw]

AMEN!!!

 

[claywoman]

Robert A. Heinlein was my hero, he is the reason I became a writer. I love his characters in almost all of his books. His character development brought these people to life, Michael Valentine Smith, Woodrow Smith aka Lazareth Long, Maureen Long, there are so many names it's difficult to name them! He made them live in our hearts and in our minds and his stories, even though improbable, seemed quite plausible.<br /><br />I loved reading them and I still do. I think I have almost everything he's ever written. I don't know how many copies of SIASL I've given away, probably more then I'd like to remember! If you look at the mathematical chances of a man living to be 3000 years old, you would realize that the chances of his meeting and marrying a descendant are highly probable, considering that LL was a letch...<br /><br />I cried for days when I learned of his death, I mourned the fact that he would no longer be writing stories for me to read. No more books of LL, no more books about MVS, no more reading a book that takes me to the stars, and opens my mind to how we should be rather then the closed society we've become!<br /><br />I agree, Robert A. Heinlein is my inspiration, he lives in all of my poetry, because I write to bring the reader into the story and into my soul when I write my poems just as he did me as a child. I thank him forever for letting my vivid imagination soar with the rockets high above my earthly body and I hope to someday meet a LL to share my life.

 

[Grok]

Claywoman,<br /><br />I've just placed you on my top 10 favorite persons list.

 

[avaunt]

AHHHH, Run while you still can, claywoman !.<br /><br />lol. Joking, of course, he is pretty cool, as long as you don't accidentally sit on his invisible friend !.<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" />

 

[Grok]

avuant,<br /><br />A really bad Helen Keller joke lurks somewhere inside that last post dying to get out.

 

[claywoman]

I want to thank all of you for making me feel welcome in the forums. I'm not a scientist, if the truth be known, I'm mathematically impaired!!! That's why I'm a Master's Candidate in History!!!<br /><br />I remember reading War and Peace when I was in fourth grade and my teacher, thinking I couldn't possibly comprehend what I'd read, tested me on the material. I passed her little 'quiz' and even corrected an error she'd made.<br /><br />If anyone is interested, you can read my poetry and stories at www.authorsden.com/claywoman You can also see what I look like, although I'm not that attractive!!!<br /><br />I know what I love and Robert Heinlein has been my fav for more years then I want to remember! I have an eclectic taste in reading material, it ranges from every book He's done to the Harry Potter series!!! I also have one complete bookcase devoted to Native American material with a book describing what Indians philosophied and prophecied about the sky and nature.<br /><br />So again, I thank you all for making me feel warm and fuzzy...

 

[Grok]

claywoman,<br /><br />Welcome to our humble abode. Anyone who loves Heinlein has to be okay in my book. I will try to get over to your site and read some of your stories. I too like to write. I'm not a published author. I write stories for my kids, and I work on a project here and there. I'm hoping that one of these days I'll have time to sit down and write seriously. I'm currently reading Methuselah's Children. I just finished Revolt in 2100. I guess I'm just working my way back through the Heinlein's and covering some of the ones I missed. What amazes me the most is that some of his stories were very advanced and then you look at the copyright date and they have these unimaginable dates like 1939 and 1954. My best memories are of my dad introducing me to Heinlein stories and discussing them with him. Don't worry about not being a scientist. It's us laypeople who will make space travel interesting. The scientist will put it under a bunsun burner and analyze it. People like us will give it a flavor and a signifcance outside the grasp of science. Not that I'm being critical of science. I just think it takes all kinds to make mankind's adventurous spirit come out. <br /><br />

 

[Grok]

crazyeddie,<br /><br />I liked the Foundation series. A very good series indeed. But it was dry compared to Heinlein. Heinlein's characters still breathe. I can't remember the characters in Foundation too well. Wasn't there one called the Mule or something like that? See, just not the same impact. That's all I remember. Meanwhile, I feel like Lazarus Long is my grandpa, and Ira Weatheral my uncle.

 

[claywoman]

This thread sent me back to my bookshelf and I'm now rereading The Cat Who Walked Through Walls. Its not one of my favs, but its been ages since I've read it! Reread Time Enough For Love and Stranger in a Strange Land again at the beginning of the summer. I think I could quote whole passages from both of them!<br /><br />Grok, I hope you do go read some of my poetry, I think you'd enjoy it...You could even buy one of my books!!! LOL!!!

 

[claywoman]

I never wrote him although I wanted to so much! I see him as Jubal, or LL, or anyone of his characters telling me to be HONEST in my writings, to give my heart and soul when I write, and I think I have...totally.<br /><br />I am in the middle of writing a book about the Anastasi people and why they disappeared. Its a great story, and it has a hook that so far no one has noticed. Its at my site at Author's Den under 'stories' and the title has nothing to do with the chapters 1-7. If anyone wants to go there and read it, I will be curious to see if they pick up my hook...so far, over 1600 reads and no one has guessed it...hehe

 

[Grok]

Claywoman,<br /><br />I got to go to Chaco Canyon a few years back. Very cool place.

 

[Grok]

LWSmith,<br /><br />Wow! You're lucky. I would love to hear the contents of that letter if they aren't too personal.<br /><br /><br /><br />