Cold energy

[LKD]

So I was watching Dr. Who. And they had a Cold Star. I guess instead of warming radiation, it gave off heat absorbing rays. Curious thing, and obviously if you can protect from excessive heat, then the opposite would be just as possible, but that is a plot hole that has little to do with my question... Sorry. On topic now...

My question is; is it physically possible for anything to have a countering effect on heat like that? As mater vs anti-mater would counter one another. Perhaps best envisioned as an atom that was below 0 kelvin.

Thank you.

 

[BurgerB75]

Someone more knowledgeable than me can probably make more sense of this but it sounds like Negative Temperature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature

Looks like flipping a magnetic field fast enough that the atoms cannot keep up produces negative temperature.

 

[LKD]

Well, It's close. Thank you for the link, but it's not what the TV show (Who I fully don't expect to follow thermal dynamics) explained. Where the sun gave off cold rays instead of warming energy.

From the Wiki it seems that negative temperature is just atomic charge and not a counter form of energy. I hope I comprehended that right.

 

[origin]

Well, It's close. Thank you for the link, but it's not what the TV show (Who I fully don't expect to follow thermal dynamics) explained. Where the sun gave off cold rays instead of warming energy.

From the Wiki it seems that negative temperature is just atomic charge and not a counter form of energy. I hope I comprehended that right.

Thermodynamically speaking heat move from hot to cold. Or energy tends to move from a high concentration to a low concentration. If you were to heat one end of a bar of steel the higher vibrational energy of the molecules would transfer their energy to the low vibratonal energy molecules at the other end of the bar, in other words the whole bar would heat up. If you put one end of a bar of steel into liquid nitrogen the higher vibrational energy of the molecules in the bar would be transfered to the liquid nitrogen and the warm end of the bar would trasfer it's energy to the cold end of the bar. In other words the bar gets cold because the heat leaves the bar.

Same thing with a refrigerator - you are not cooling the air in the refrigerator you are simply removing the heat from the refrigerator.

At absolute zero there is no vibrational energy so any heat no matter how slight would be transfered to something at absolute zero.

All of this results in the 3 laws of thermodyanmics. These are pretty rock solid laws.

The idea of negative energy or something that has a temperature less than absolute zero is therefore nonsensical, because it follows that if there was something less than absolute zero; then there would be a transfer of energy from something AT absolute zero - but there is no energy to transfer! What you are describing can only exist in the arena of science fiction.

 

[MeteorWayne]

There's another thead about this subject. This will be merged into the earlier one. Please watch the moderator actions topic for where it winds up.

It is after all, Dr. Who, which is in fact science fiction, not Physics.

 

[LKD]

No need at all. I get the gist. And as expected as far as we know, it's impossible.

I thought so, but you never know what oddities are out there that defy what we understand like 2 cars running into each other not being like running into a wall at twice the speed, actually being like running into a wall at the same speed.

 

[origin]

I thought so, but you never know what oddities are out there that defy what we understand like 2 cars running into each other not being like running into a wall at twice the speed, actually being like running into a wall at the same speed.

That is only true if the cars are going exactly the same speed, weight exactly the same amount and the cars deform in exactly the same way. In reality there is always a winner and a loser in a head on, of course a head on crash will always ruin your day....

 

[Strax]

hmmm. well if we want to think out of the box, it is possible, that there are two elements that we dont know about out in the universe that, when come in contact, create an endothermic reaction that could give off cold energy, however i have a feeling that such a thing would also give off no light, and at the same time if it reached under absolute zero we would be frozen instantaneously.

 

[origin]

hmmm. well if we want to think out of the box, it is possible, that there are two elements that we dont know about out in the universe that, when come in contact, create an endothermic reaction that could give off cold energy, however i have a feeling that such a thing would also give off no light, and at the same time if it reached under absolute zero we would be frozen instantaneously.

There are plenty of reactions that are endothermic but the idea of negative energy does not make any rational sense.

 

[Strax]

origin- the only reason why i considered Negative Energy, is because we are talking about space, which, unless im wrong, should be at absolute zero already or near it so in order for something to send out cold energy, it has to be colder than space. That is my logic, but im just a high school student so i could be wrong.

 

[origin]

origin- the only reason why i considered Negative Energy, is because we are talking about space, which, unless im wrong, should be at absolute zero already or near it so in order for something to send out cold energy, it has to be colder than space. That is my logic, but im just a high school student so i could be wrong.

Space is very cold but it is not absolute zero - just very close. In the case of temperature the energy is in the form of translational kenetic energy - in other words the atoms vibrate. At absolute zero there would be no vibration at all. You never can acutally reach absolute zero because heat always goes from hot to cold so there would have to be something below absolute zero to remove that last bit of energy. The reason I say that negative energy is nonsensical is because in the case of temperature for instance negative energy would be negative vibration. It just doesn't make any sense, I mean what the heck is negative vibration?

It is always good to question. These are good questions and ideas to ponder for a high school student - I didn't know enough in high school to even ask questions at his level.

 

[Strax]

origin- you make perfect sense with that, "negative vibration" is impossible, you cant have anti motion. Cold energy is making less and less sense now. even with space at such a cold temperature. a sun cannot have atoms that aren't moving or it wouldn't do anything at all. I'm not sure it would even stay together.

however what if the Cold Sun had an effect with the atmosphere with the planet with it, that it made cold energy. as in it is an opposite of greenhouse gasses. like an opposite Venus. would that work to create cold energy?

 

[origin]

however what if the Cold Sun had an effect with the atmosphere with the planet with it, that it made cold energy. as in it is an opposite of greenhouse gasses. like an opposite Venus. would that work to create cold energy?

The cold sun and cold energy are simply subjects of science fiction. If you really look closely at any science fiction you will find fundemantal flaws in the logic or impossible assumptions - hence the fiction part of science fiction.

I am not sure where you are going with this. I think that you might find this an interesting subject though, look up 'Laser cooling' on the net and you will find that by using normal energy in the form of laser light you can remove energy from a substance and cool it dramatically.

 

[MeteorWayne]

origin- you make perfect sense with that, "negative vibration" is impossible, you cant have anti motion. Cold energy is making less and less sense now. even with space at such a cold temperature. a sun cannot have atoms that aren't moving or it wouldn't do anything at all. I'm not sure it would even stay together.

however what if the Cold Sun had an effect with the atmosphere with the planet with it, that it made cold energy. as in it is an opposite of greenhouse gasses. like an opposite Venus. would that work to create cold energy?

There is, nor can there be any such thing as a "cold sun". Please get your physics into the 20th century. I realize you are a high school student, but if you want to post in the physics forum, you REALLY need to get up to speed on the last 100 years of physics.

 

[Strax]

meteorwayne and origin- i realize its fiction, if you remember i said it was a hypothetical situation in my first post, by saying "well if we want to think out of the box". He also said he got the idea from Doctor Who, which i watch a lot, i know the impossibilities of that show. during every one of my posts i have meant it hypothetically.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Well then this topic really belongs in Science Fiction, doesn't it?

The Physics forum is for discussion of real physics

 

[Kessy]

LOL LKD, I would suggest in the future that you start with the assumption that anything mentioned in Doctor Who is completely made up and has nothing at all to do with the real world.

Incidentally, it is impossible for any material to be at absolute zero, but that's because of the uncertainty principle. The uncertainty of a particle's momentum multiplied by the uncertainty in its position can never be less then a fixed fraction of Planck's Constant. If a material were at absolute zero, its constituent particles would have to have exactly zero velocity, and therefore their position would also be precisely known - which completely defies the uncertainty principle.

 

[clausbelly]

The reason for choosing cold energy, is due to the mention of the fittings and insulation material. I can't see how the fluid can be distributed through these parts. The zero energy cool chamber can be constructed easily with materials like brick, sand, bamboo, khashkhas/straw, gunny bag etc. The chamber can keep the temperature 10-15 oC cooler than the outside temperature and maintain about 90% relative humidity.

 

[undidly]

LOL LKD, I would suggest in the future that you start with the assumption that anything mentioned in Doctor Who is completely made up and has nothing at all to do with the real world.

Incidentally, it is impossible for any material to be at absolute zero, but that's because of the uncertainty principle. The uncertainty of a particle's momentum multiplied by the uncertainty in its position can never be less then a fixed fraction of Planck's Constant. If a material were at absolute zero, its constituent particles would have to have exactly zero velocity, and therefore their position would also be precisely known - which completely defies the uncertainty principle.

Any attempt to determine the location of a particle at absolute zero would disturb it then we would not know exactly where it is.
Even if it returned to absolute zero it would be somewhere else.

""Doctor Who is completely made up and has nothing at all to do with the real world""

Are you trying to spoil my day?.

 

[origin]

The reason for choosing cold energy, is due to the mention of the fittings and insulation material. I can't see how the fluid can be distributed through these parts. The zero energy cool chamber can be constructed easily with materials like brick, sand, bamboo, khashkhas/straw, gunny bag etc. The chamber can keep the temperature 10-15 oC cooler than the outside temperature and maintain about 90% relative humidity.

What in the name of Bob are you talking about?