galaxy formation

[xxMIKExx]

Sorry if this is in the wrong place.
I have been trying to understand how galaxies form but after reading a few books and hours of reading on the internet, I'm more dumbfounded than ever. I've read that many different explanations (some of which seem quite feesable, other's seem ridiculous).
I was just hoping that maybe someone on here could give me the most generaly accepted version for galaxy formation?
many thanks for your time
Mike

 

[BoJangles2]

You and me both... basically the general consensus is that they are mergers from smaller satellite galaxies, though that just doesn’t do it for me, there is a lot of research in this field and a lot of conflicting evidence in the areas of dark matter and so forth. Hopefully someone else has some more satisfying answers for you.

 

[MeteorWayne]

I just read about some new research in the lates Science News. I'll read the more detailed article online and either summarize or post a link if I can

BTW, this would be better off in Space Science and Astronomy, so I'll move it there.

 

[xxMIKExx]

Thanks Bo Jangles but that doesn't do it for me either. It still needs an explanation for how the satelite galaxies form.

Thanks for moving my post Wayne and i look forward to reading the link when you post it

 

[MeteorWayne]

No problem with the move, and welcome to Space.com

I'll try and get to that this afternoon, but the spammers are keeping me a little busy today

 

[xXTheOneRavenXx]

I wonder if Vecto Slipher was hinting that currents cause the formation of galaxies. He associated their radial velocity with their rotation, and was not at all surprised to find a rotation about an axis after discovering their radial velocity. It sounds like to me if you have a swirl of current in a space of small particles, these particles will be driven around in a circular motion. This would explain why none of the outer stars are flung outwards. Once this motion is set in place, the matter carried along with it would contract and condense as it's pushed within it's cloud around an axis of sorts. If you believe the theory of black holes, then a supermassive black hole may be explained by the condensing of the center-most particles in the current to a gravitational collapsing point. From this point the black holes gravity only maintains the momentum, the current may very well still "push" the outer stars inward, again keeping them from being flung outward. But that's just my own theory. I will have to read more on the subject.

 

[harrycostas]

G'day from the land of ozzzz

Matter clusters and keeps on collecting.

The evolution of galaxies is directly related to the size of the compact nucelon (so called black hole) and its ability to form giant jets that eject matter beyond the envelope of the galaxy.

Lets look at elliptical galaxy such as M87 and its giant jet. Its activity ejects matter forming a elliptical galaxy, in due time gravitational forces will form a spiral, so forming a spiral galaxy. See Hubble tuning fork.

The Nucleon of the spiral galaxy will collect the spiral matter over billions of years until the nucleon again become super active ejecting matter and forming once again an elliptical galaxy. (there are several other forms in between)

These jets can be observed on Hubble site.

Complications occur with mergers, but the same rule will apply in time.

 

[xXTheOneRavenXx]

Actually harrycostas there are more then just one complication in reference to galaxy formation. Such as to why the outer-most stars don't just fly off into space. Dark energy is believed to take a role in resolving this issue. Are you suggesting that the black hole jets are responsible for the formation of the galaxy? If so, where did the matter come from to form the jets in the first place? It's a case of "Which came first?" senerio.

 

[harrycostas]

G'day Raven

Matter cannot be created or destroyed.

But! it can change phases.

Most matter is gravity bound and thefore goes in an out. There are some jets that do expell matter beyond affecting far galaxies. This matter is controlled by gravity vectors, attractors by other galaxies.

I could go onto cluster galaxy evolution.

As for Black holes, they do not exist so to speak. It really depends on how you define a black hole. Most ultra condensed matter show similar properties of so called black holes but not with the same limitations. They do form an axiom and jets that Core and the disc TANGO and form jets with stability of millions of years that are able to eject such matter.

As for Dark matter and Dark energy as defined by the BBT is really a fantasy theory, because they cannot find such matter and energy.
If you define the matter/energy as phases that are related to condensed matter that are found in Neutron, Quark, Neutrino matter Bose-Einstein than it becomes more realistic.


Bose-Einstein Condensation of Dark Matter Axions
Jan-09
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009arXiv0901.1106S

 

[dryson]

Matter cannot be created or destroyed.

If matter cannot be created or destroyed then in reality nothing exists then based off of this assumption.

 

[Payloadcontroller]

Dryson, please read the entire post. He said, "Matter cannot be created nor destroyed. But it can change phases."

Matter and energy are the two phases. I'm sure you've seen Einstein's most famous equation, E=mc^2. This is the equation describing the relationship between those phases. Matter condenses out of energy, and energy is "evaporated" matter.

 

[emperor_of_localgroup]

Dryson, please read the entire post. He said, "Matter cannot be created nor destroyed. But it can change phases."

Matter and energy are the two phases. I'm sure you've seen Einstein's most famous equation, E=mc^2. This is the equation describing the relationship between those phases. Matter condenses out of energy, and energy is "evaporated" matter.

I think he's talking about the very original matter or energy that came into existence from 'nowhere'.

I have a simple question about galaxy formation. It takes millions/billions year to form a galaxy. We have been only observing them for the last few hundred years. From our snap shots of all the galaxies how can one tell
1) a galaxy is forming or
2) a galaxy is breaking up?

 

[MeteorWayne]

The general answer is that we can see motion in different parts of the galaxy by looking at the relative redshift. We can tell which parts are moving in which directions. And of course, since gravity controls the overall motion, it allows us to put the motion in context.

 

[BuzzLY]

Dryson, please read the entire post. He said, "Matter cannot be created nor destroyed. But it can change phases."

Matter and energy are the two phases. I'm sure you've seen Einstein's most famous equation, E=mc^2. This is the equation describing the relationship between those phases. Matter condenses out of energy, and energy is "evaporated" matter.

I think he's talking about the very original matter or energy that came into existence from 'nowhere'.

I have a simple question about galaxy formation. It takes millions/billions year to form a galaxy. We have been only observing them for the last few hundred years. From our snap shots of all the galaxies how can one tell
1) a galaxy is forming or
2) a galaxy is breaking up?

Emperor, while we have not observed any single galaxy long enough to determine exactly what's happening, we can by their distance observe millions of galaxies over the history of the universe. Galaxies at 12 billion light years are very young and they have properties (shape, size, matal content, etc.) that differ from nearby gallaxies that are much older. The evolution can be devoloped by identifing the transformation of gallactic properties over time, even though they are different galaxies. If for example, at 8 billion years ago there were very few spirals, and then within the last billion years or so more and more spirals exist, we can extrapolate a history of galaxy evolution. As you build up the types and plot them over time, a more detailed evolution picture emerges.

 

[dangineer]

Another thing astronomers use are models and simulations. They build a program with the appropriate physics and initial conditions and let it run to see what happens. If the results coincide with observations, they know there model is close. Their initial conditions may change based on observations, such as composition and distribution of the primordial gas cloud, the existence of a black hole before the formation of the galaxy, the presence of smaller nearby galaxies, etc.

 

[_110501_]

Howdy.....Everything is a by-product.....ergo,,,, a fraction of cause and effect,,,,,from larger actions come smaller by-products.......with that understood, you can consider other ways in which geometry and its density can come into existence. i.e. mc2 which is density.......The galaxy that you see is only about 1/10 of the true size of the total bonded forces which is that galaxy (depending upon the type of galaxy will dictate the true integer of total size)(as well as the strengths of the fractions of the formation process.) I find it very interesting that when varying a little bit of formation fractions, it will change the evolution of the object. Similar to but not the same as. I can tell you how it is done from my perspective, and that would be only one of millions. Everyone has their own perspective of formation styles. So I say measure your definitions, look to the basics, for it is only when the basic is more basic that Science advances. It is the basic that you measure. The device you use to measure with may become a new tool. Some tools are very useful to further the quality of being Human......Life, Liberty, Freedom is Naturally Sacred, Vote.....Vote for it to survive. stop tyranny.........My name is Uncle Sam, I say,,, Let My People Go....I as all are, am private, leave my life alone.....The public is secure as long as the vote is honest and secure.......I make my own money, don't steal it from me to pay for peoples failures. The beauty of American Capitalism is that people amass wealth, because people have a natural trait known as benevolence, philanthropy evolves and charities come into existence, privately owned. Be there failures, people will reach down and lift them up.....Not the role of governments at tax payers expense. Not any aspect of a persons life should government be involved with......unless harm is involved.

 

[CommonMan]

Howdy.....Everything is a by-product.....ergo,,,, a fraction of cause and effect,,,,,from larger actions come smaller by-products.......with that understood, you can consider other ways in which geometry and its density can come into existence. i.e. mc2 which is density.......The galaxy that you see is only about 1/10 of the true size of the total bonded forces which is that galaxy (depending upon the type of galaxy will dictate the true integer of total size)(as well as the strengths of the fractions of the formation process.) I find it very interesting that when varying a little bit of formation fractions, it will change the evolution of the object. Similar to but not the same as. I can tell you how it is done from my perspective, and that would be only one of millions. Everyone has their own perspective of formation styles. So I say measure your definitions, look to the basics, for it is only when the basic is more basic that Science advances. It is the basic that you measure. The device you use to measure with may become a new tool. Some tools are very useful to further the quality of being Human......Life, Liberty, Freedom is Naturally Sacred, Vote.....Vote for it to survive. stop tyranny.........My name is Uncle Sam, I say,,, Let My People Go....I as all are, am private, leave my life alone.....The public is secure as long as the vote is honest and secure.......I make my own money, don't steal it from me to pay for peoples failures. The beauty of American Capitalism is that people amass wealth, because people have a natural trait known as benevolence, philanthropy evolves and charities come into existence, privately owned. Be there failures, people will reach down and lift them up.....Not the role of governments at tax payers expense. Not any aspect of a persons life should government be involved with......unless harm is involved.

WHAT? You lost me, how is galaxy forming and the American govenment alike? Try explaining it real slow. Look at my avater, I'm just a commonman.

 

[geofbrewer]

Think of the universe as a pan of space-time: infinitely small and massive. Now instead of an external heat source, we have this rapid expansion. Instead of roiling water boiling, we have matter roiling about in "mass" confusion. If is not uniform, just like the bubbles of air being "bounced" out of the liquid, we have mass and temperture differentials. This creates circulation and vortices. Some of the bubbles of mass collide making larger bubbles. Physics takes its course. The motion of these bubbles respond to all the factors of this expanding pan of space-time. Simplistic? Yes. But alot of people don't realize the circulation of the mass of the Sun can be summarized by the action occuring in a pot or pan of boiling water. Simple fluid dynamics at work. It's not that much of a leap to galaxy formation. Just a larger scale. Watching a pot boil can be very instructive.

 

[netdragon]

I think a good puzzle is a chicken-and-egg problem of which came first: A gravity well or the matter. I believe the gravity well came first. Perhaps created by some form of exotic matter/energy perhaps just by "turbulence" in the fabric of space itself, perhaps interdimensional effects. Example: Take 5 people and a sheet and line stones all along it and hold the corners up, then pull down gradually on the center of the sheet and watch the stones go toward the center. By pulling down you have caused all the stones created the equivalent of a gravity well, and the stones falling into the center created the "galaxy".

Eventually, this turns into an interdimensional tear and a black hole. The black hole then can feed out matter by the opposite of matter/antimatter annihilation of interdimensional energy (resulting in a matter galaxy in one area of the universe, and an anti-matter galaxy somewhere else)

 

[dryson]

So what your saying netdragon is that the opposite affect of how a blackhole draws in particles and cannot escape can be used as a model of how particles are distributed across the Universe at faster then light speed velocities or can actually compress particles within a given area of space between tangent virtual graviton particles that generate the same type of gravity as a blackhole but instead of the gravity pulling the particles towards the event horizon the gravity would push particles around.

This idea can be based on the Anthropic Principle and does not have to conform with any unified theory of what is a norm.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Sadly, more meaningless gibberish. What the heck are your trying to say? You should use the language of physics, rather than making up meaningless words and shoveling them into a post!