Images of Mars -- Part Three

[JonClarke]

Regarding Anatolia.....<br /><br />This was an irregular open crack, partly collapsed, between Eagle and endurance. the high resolution MOC imagery shows several such features. No me it looks like a contraction feature, morphologically similar to what you would see here when clay-rich soils shrink after a prolonged drought.<br /><br />On Mars such features could result from range of volume changes. Dehydration of minerals, loss of ground ice (unlikely at Meridiani), or thermal contraction, for example.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

When comparing Earth to other planets we need to make sure that the comparisons are valid. That is what makes such efforts a challenge and a pleasure.<br /><br />An important thing to start with is to differentiate between features that result from universal principlesof phsyics, chemistry, and stratigraphy, and those which result from local conditions. <br /><br />It is important also to separate processes that are likely to be shared and those which are not. So for example, wind processes are common to Earth, Mars, Titan, and Venus, but liquid water only to earth and sometimes Mars. Silicate volcanism occurs on Mars, Venus, and Earth, but not Titan. Liquid methane is respricted to Titan, CO2 ices to Mars, metallic snow to Venus, and life possibly to Earth.<br /><br />There are also analogues. Water snow is absent from venus, but metallic compounds behave similarly. methane appears to behave like water on Titan.<br /><br />On asphalt, although it flows it never flows like water so never will produce features that result from low viscosity fluids like water, or methane. Counterparts to asphalt include glacier ice, salt glaciers, and serpentinites.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

You know the Canary Islands well???? Now I am extremely jealous!<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

"so i'm just wondering how many more rovers and super mega-pixel resolutions were going to have and yet not know anything more than just how pretty the landscape appears? where is the magic rover mission that brings all of the experts to the same conclusions?'<br /><br />All understanding is a work in progress, so we will never reach this happy state. We haven't reached it yet with earth!<br /><br /><br />How because we don't know everything, it does not mean we can't know something. Some possibilities can be excluded, others can be narrowed down.<br /><br />So, the overwhelming majority of scientists don't see a role for volcanism in the landscape at Meridiani. In the same way it is no longer tenable to talk about a lake at Gusev, at least recently (there may be lake sediments buried under the lava).<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

Jon, do you see a mission whatsoever slated for the great volcanoes like Olympus Mons, ie, Tharsis region? perhaps with an armada of rovers and mobile robots about it's base, it's cliffs, its slopes, it's top? <br /><br />what would you personally like to see emerge next as a robotic geology suite? and why and where?

 

[JonClarke]

That would be great wouldn't it?<br /><br />There are many problems, or if you prefer challenges, with the big volcanoes.<br /><br />1. Engineering<br /><br />Their altitude - landing spacecraft well above the Martian datum.<br /><br />The scale of the features - developing rovers that can traverse 100's of km<br /><br />Very hostile terrain for both landing and traversing - very rough, surfaces, cliffs, fissures etc.<br /><br />2. Science<br /><br />Not good environments for past or present life forms - unless we can find a modern or fossil vent.<br /><br />No sediments - limited geological diversity and potential for fossils.<br /><br />Relatively young - little potential for elucidating the early history of Mars which is where most of the astrobiological interest is.<br /><br />That said, some of the older volcanoes are on the list of MSL site candidates - Nilli Patera, for example, and Nili Fossa, nearby, also Cerberus Fossae/Athabasca Vallis is on the list, I think.<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> Where would I like to go with MSL? Holden, Eberswalde, or Gale craters I am enamoured with at the moment! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi there. MSL perhaps Candor Chasma, or as you say, Galle Crater (the happy face crater). <br /><br />I do know the Canary Island very well indeed, incredibly beuatiful (away from the brain dead tacky resorts), fascinating geology, most part fantastic weather (although when I went to Gran Canaria & El Hierro last March, it was cool & wet at times, but hot when the sun was out).<br /><br />Mount Teide & Parqe Nacional del las Canadas del Teide, on Tenerife is a must. It looks like Mars, (apart from the blue sky & Winter snow despite the proximity to the Tropic of Cancer, 3,700 metres approx) no doubt a real boon to those interested in volcanic geology. Lanzarote is also a must the Timanfaya park & the Fire mountains of Timanfaya.<br /><br />La Palma is causing concern seeing as itm could cause an Atlantic Tsunami that could devaste the eastern seaboard of Canad, USA & the Caribbean. I have visited the offending volcano on this island (it has nine vents, but one magma chamber).<br /><br />I know that I am off topic, but this subject does appear to have aroused some interest & I am more than happy to oblige. If anyone here at SDC has the chance to go to the Canary Islands, do. Iceland, <br /><br />The Azores & the Cape Verde islands (also the name given to a promontery in Victoria Crater) too are very interesting & I will, when my wife is back, plan a few trips to these as well as return to the Canary Islands.<br /><br />Thank you for responding to my request about the Anatolia fault in Meridiani Planum. I have studied many images of this & could not decide if it was a fault, fracture or what ever. Compression of the clays sounds the most likely explanation.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

thank you, Jon, for your addressing of my queries <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[bonzelite]

borman, i like the idea of a clustered mission. this is what i've been wanting to see happen. we need literally an armada of rovers and orbiters to do simultaneous in-situ study of Mars so that regions of the planet can be compared at the same time. in essence, we would benefit from a geological/meteorological system around and on Mars to monitor the planet. it appears we are already headed in this direction with the communication between various missions already sent there. if i'm not mistaken, MRO can communicate with ESA's Mars Express and as well as with MGS?

 

[JonClarke]

Hi Andrew <br /><br />You have haveen to iceland too? Now I <b>really</b> am jealous! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> ! Wandering round volcavoes is such so cool. the mostr exciting day of my life was going to White isalnd in New Zealand<br /><br />As far as I know Galle (happy face) crater is not on the list for MSL. Gale (after the Australian amateur astronomer), however is. This is the the crater whose central peak is higher than the rim and composed entirely of layered sediments (about 5 km of them, I think) so it is a remnant of a former stratigraphic unit that buried the crater, rather than a true central peak. <br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Multiple landers have been thought of before. The MPL mission had three landers - MPL itself, and the two DS-2 penetrators. Mars 96 had four landers, two small stations and two penetrators. Sadly both missions failed. <br /><br /><br />I am sure Netlander idea for a chain of geophsyical and meteorological probes deployed across the martian surface will fly one day, even though it is not scheduled. <br /><br />As for multiple big landers - say MSL or Viking sized, requiring a Ares V sized launcher, should are talking about a very big, very complex and very expensive. An Ares V should be able to deploy something like 5 MSL sized rovers, plus all the communications support they would need. This would be a 10 billion $$$ mission.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[silylene old]

I would just be happy if we sent another pair of Opportunity-clone landers (actually a half-dozen landers would be even better). Bet it could be done for under $150M each.<br /><br />'Course the real cost comes with the scientific teams and data collection to run and analyze each lander for the next several years. But it would be very cool! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Definitely! But then I am in favour of just about any kind of Mars mission. I'm easy to please <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<br />1P215633866EL5M1<br /> <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

I lightened this image a bit to expose what was hiding in the shadows.<br /><br />1P215633754EL5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

Here is the shadow exposed from the one above.<br /><br />1P215633866EL5M1.5 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange"> bonzelite -- wow. those images are stunning. i've never seen pics of the martian surface like these recent ones of the cliffs and boulders. that is just a million bucks.<font color="white"><br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />Without the great job the MER team is doing we wouldn’t be getting all these great RGB filter images, Its only going to be getting better. I’m glad to have contributed my small part in helping develop them in a different light. <br /><br /><br /><font color="orange">3488-DO you know if the prototypes of the craft depicted in your images are <br />to be tested soon?<font color="white"><br /><br />I am trying to get funding to do just that. <br /><br />For the Heli-Balloon here is four major hurdles:<br /><br />1) Inflating the balloon on descent, to a lesser degree that has already been <br />proven out by Dr. Zubrin’s Pioneering Aeronautics. The helicopter blades <br />have much less lifting force in the thin Martian atmosphere than it does on <br />earth at sea level.<br /><br />2) Mass to weight ratio of the battery packs, balloon envelope, and the <br />total mass of the ultra light helicopter like lifting device, Mars gravity is .38 of <br />that of earths, using a electric motor and battery pact charged by a thin <br />wall solar cells on the top of the balloon. If you use the same type of electric <br />engine as is used to propel the world’s fastest car: <br /><br />http://www.dwra.net/dwrastreamliner.htm<br /><br />Then you can get about 2 to 5 minutes of 150 kilowatts, or less power to lift <br />the rover to a new location depending on the mass of the rover. This could <br />be used on descent with a parachute-helicopter device because that much <br />short burst of power by the electric helicopter may also provide an alternate <br />method of landing <br />other Martian payloads such as a Mars return vehicle. You may get away with <br />a lot less energy than that it all depends on the mass</font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[abq_farside]

RE: 1P215633866EL5M1.5 <br /><br />Nice job with the images as usual.<br /><br />Interesting shadowing (star shaped in lower left for one) in crevasses in rocks of this picture. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><em><font size="1" color="#000080">Don't let who you are keep you from becoming who you want to be!</font></em></p> </div>

 

[arkady]

Shameless bump! <br /><br />I need my weekly Mars fix! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "<font color="#0000ff"><em>The choice is the Universe, or nothing</em> ... </font>" - H.G Wells </div>

 

[3488]

Hi rlb2.<br /><br />WOW, please keep producing your excellent images. Have you thought of having a book published with them?? If you do, put me down for a copy.<br /><br />Thank you for your response.<br /><br />You should get funding for that research. If NASA & ESA are serious about the exploration of Mars as they claim (I think they are), they must take ALL suggestions on board.<br /><br />Oxidisers are certainly the problem. Could the oxidiser not be extracted from the rocks? Getting helicopter rotor blades to 'bite' (lift) in such a thin atmosphere is a big problem. <br /><br />A few years ago, some climbers had to be rescued from near the summit of Mont Blanc in France (about 3,200 metres), & the rescue helicopter had real problems as it had to maintain that altitude for the rescue. The first attempt was aborted, & the pilot literally, chucked everything out that was not essential to make it lighter & also it used up its entire load of fuel after each trip, as the air was so thin. The helicopter could only bring one climber down at a time (otherwise it would just descend & crash as being too heavy) & there were four of them, & that was only at about 3,200 metres. <br /><br />The atmospheric pressure on Mars is the same as Earth's at 30,000 metres / 19 miles, so I would imagine that the biggest weight factor would be the size of the blades (although as you correctly say the surface gravity is only 38% of ours, so that will make things much easier). The helicopter / balloon hybrid IMO would be the most likely to succeed. As you correctly stated again, many terrestrial weather balloons often reach that altitude & even more!!<br /><br /><br />Hi Jon. <br /><br />I see you point about the giant Tharsis shield volcanoes & the merits of not using rovers on them. I would however like to see a static lander (like Mars Pathfinder) in the caldera of one, equiped with an MER style PANCAM, tiltmeter & with a seismometer (not asking for too much am I? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">Interesting shadowing (star shaped in lower left for one) in crevasses in rocks of this picture.<font color="white"><br /><br />I agree. <br /><br />I couldn't answer you right away because I have been gone for three weeks on a business trip, I'm back now, it looks like JPL didn't put out too many images since I have been gone???<br /><br />Here is one of them: 1P215722104EL5M1<br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">WOW, please keep producing your excellent images. Have you thought of having a book published <br />with them?? If you do, put me down for a copy.<font color="white"><br /><br />Thanks, I have over 3,000 color images from the MER rovers that I have processed so <br />far and growing. I talked to some people at a Mars conference once about transferring <br />all of them on a CD some day. A book would be nice; it would require much more work <br />and research.<br /><br />1P215722197EL5M1<br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

1P215723121EL5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[JonClarke]

1P215722197EL5M1 <br /><br />Looks like the interior slope deposits of the crater is quite old - there are some small craters visible on the flanks. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi rlb2. I would like a CD, if you get it published. Please let me know when it is available & how to buy one.<br /><br />Hi Jon, good point. Also the fact remains that the floor of Victoria Crater appears to be covered in a thick mantle of dust (taken a lot of time to accumulate) & the various rock slides show that this is an extremely ancient feature. Any guesses as to how old it might be??<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>