Images of Mars -- Part Three

[exoscientist]

Still, the mineralogy data for Victoria crater itself have not been released. It is possible that Victoria could be volcanic in exception to the general state of affairs in Meridiani.<br /> This is something that will be decided very quickly if the "pillow lava" or "dikes" turn out to be igneous.<br /> If not, then I'll agree Victoria crater is not a volcanic feature.<br /><br /><br /><br /> Bob Clark<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi there exoscientist & Jon.<br /><br />Thank you both, for providing me with new info. I am learning a great deal from you both. Much appreciated indeed.<br /><br />Looking at what appears to be pillow lavas in the Opportunity raw images, appear to me that is exactly what we are looking at. <br /><br />To me, it seems as if under the ancient sea bed of Meridiani Planum, fissures had opened up, allowing molten rock to rise close to the surface. When the ancient sea started to evaporate, perhaps there were geysers & hot springs. I think Victoria is a genuine caldera, where magma did find a way through. <br /><br />I wonder, did Meridiani sit above a weak magmatic hot spot?<br /><br />I am so pleased that Opportunity made it (I did keep up with the news, despite being rather unwell). <br /><br />Whilst I would love to see Opportunity go in, she appears to be working far too well & does not appear to be on her last legs or wheels in this case, to risk any thing dangerous. <br /><br />IMO at the moment, Opportunity should drive around the entire perimeter, taking regular pit stops to do remote sensing, RAT work & take images. If there is no safe way in & out, perhaps Opportunity should be directed to the hills on the horizon. Perhaps volcanic cones? <br /><br />Could MGS or MRO image these hills on Opportunity's horizon?? I think this should be done before Mars goes into Superior Conjunction.<br /><br />I know it is a long way & there is a good chance Opportunity will pack up (after all, she has lasted well in excess of ten times the design life), but Meridiani does seem fairly easy driving terrain with very little effort required, dust dunes permitting (unlike Gusev Crater / Columbia Hills for Spirit).<br /><br />Andrew Brown.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[ldyaidan]

I'm very sorry to hear you are not doing well. I will send good thoughts your way.<br /><br />Rae

 

[bonzelite]

<font color="yellow"><br />My sink hole idea refered to the feature known as Sputnik. However the detailed MRO imagery has led me to think that Sputnik is just another impact feature. Alas, another beautiful hypothesis slain by ugly facts. <br /></font><br /><br />indeed. <br /><br />explaining every martian feature seen as resulting from impact events is pretty boring and lacking in imagination to me. <br /><br />

 

[rlb2]

I'm going to be gone for 5 days folks on vacation to see my daughter’s first baby <br />and my first granddaughter; I'll leave with this thought: <br /><br />Imagine a Heli-Balloon combo, by itself a helicopter would never work in Mars <br />thin atmosphere but with the mass of a rotary type device supported completely <br />by the balloon then all it needs to do is lift the landing craft. The balloon will add <br />stability. It then can go to different locations hundred’s of kilometers away.<br />With proper funding I hope to demonstrate it terrestrially someday at 100,000 feet.<br /><br />This could also be used here on earth to help in high altitude science observations<br /> and experiments.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[vandivx]

I just don't see that Heli-Balloon combo you like so much <br /><br />reason is look how carefully (read slowly) they are driving Oportunity and Spirit, for amateur like me they are way too overcautious and you feel like telling them to 'drive it for christ sake'<br /><br />but I also realize what's involved, the necessary command delay and what you going to do if you should get stuck riding that remote controled vehicle for the steering of which you have only rudimentary and non real time data channel<br /><br />I don't see those mission controllers who are now inching forward at almost glacial pace pondering every move to want to control something that flies and which they can't stop and figure where to go next, it would smash into first or second slope of some bigger hill or wall of a crater<br /><br />also how would it be powered and what would happen when 'winter' comes, you probably couldn't rely on solar pannels for energy and even if you could I don't see this taking off<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">I don't see those mission controllers who are now inching forward at <br />almost glacial pace pondering every move to want to control something that flies<br /> and which they can't stop and figure where to go next, it would smash into <br />first or second slope of some bigger hill or wall of a crater.<font color="white"><br /><br />This would be used for different types of research and imaging. On top of <br />the balloon will be a very thin wall solar collector, that doubled in efficiency <br />with a much lower mass to watt ratio from what they were doing before the time <br />the MER rovers went to Mars. Data storage devices have leapfrogged into the <br />telebyte range. Digital cameras have improved tenfold and shrunk in size since <br />the MER rovers have left Earth for Mars. Still all these new mediums need rigorous <br />testing to harden them for space travel.<br /><br />Most of the MER problems are coming from several different places.<br /><br />1) The power the MER's uses is very low to move the rover with the energy they<br /> consume from the solar arrays at different times of year. Therefore it can only <br />travel at 3 Kilometer's per hour max but can run for only a few minutes at a time.<br /><br />2) The MER broad-width transmitting back and forth from Mars to Earth is slow. <br />MRO radio transmitter is now in orbit that will transmit back at a lot greater speed <br />than anything else sent there so far because of using K-band frequencies. A laser <br />tramitter is in the works by NASA that will leapfrog anything even the K-band type.<br /><br />3) The third is the instrument package they have on board requires special <br />packaging because of reduce size variable's - mass restrictions etc etc.<br /><br />Balloons have been sent up into the Earths upper atmosphere to the Martian atmospheric <br />equivalence height for over 50 years. What I proposed here is no cake walk but it can <br />drastically reduce the expense while gathering immense amount o</font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<i>explaining every martian feature seen as resulting from impact events is pretty boring and lacking in imagination to me. </i><br /><br />Aren't you lucky then that there are a great many Martian features that are not due to impact?<br /><br />For example: sapping valleys, valley networks, outflow valleys, deltas, fan-deltas, fans, gulleys, rifts, fracture networks, spiders, pasted on terrain, mantle deposits seif dunes, transverse dunes, barchans, circular dunes, debris flows, land slides, boulder deposits snow, frost, glaciers, lava flows, cinder cones, rootless cones, caldera, solifluction, deep weathering, exfoliation, pachydermal weathering, evaporites.....<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

that's more like it. <br /><br />cool.

 

[exoscientist]

http://uplink.space.com/attachments//594101-Victoria-color-annot.5.jpg<br /><br />and<br /><br />http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=8055<br /><br /> If it is <font color="red">A</font>sedimentary layer, that implies the rock surrounding it is something <font color="red">ELSE</font><br /> Such as <font color="red">igneous</font>for example.<br /><br /><br /> Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Or a fault, an indurated joint, a vein (we have seen examples of all three already), or a sedimentary ****. At this stage you must keep an open mind about the possibilities.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[exoscientist]

This was referred to as "Sputnik" crater in the Oct. 6th MER rover and MRO news conference:<br /><br />Layers of 'Cabo Frio' in 'Victoria Crater' (Stereo) <br />"This view of "Victoria crater" is looking southeast from "Duck Bay" towards the dramatic promontory called "Cabo Frio." The small crater in the right foreground, informally known as "Sputnik", is about 20 meters (about 65 feet) away from the rover, the tip of the spectacular, layered, Cabo Frio promontory itself is about 200 meters (about 650 feet) away from the rover, and the exposed rock layers are about 15 meters (about 50 feet) tall. This is a red-blue stereo anaglyph generated from images taken by the panoramic camera (Pancam) on NASA's Mars Exploration Rover Opportunity during the rover's 952nd sol, or Martian day, (Sept. 28, 2006) using the camera's 430-nanometer filters." <br />http://marsrovers.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20061006a/Sol952B_P2388_L7R1ana.jpg<br />http://marsrovers.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20061006a.html<br /><br />Take a look at all the highest resolution Cape Verde HIRISE images on this page to get a better idea of this feature:<br /><br />NASA'S Mars Rover and Orbiter Team Examines Victoria Crater. <br />06-Oct-2006 <br />http://marsrovers.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20061006a.html<br /><br />There is a roundish feature there, but looking at all highest resolution images, this roundish "depression" is very subdued, if it is even a depression. <br />But in the 3-D image from the rover there looks to be a deep hole and this hole looks more linear than round. I think what the 3-D image is showing is the gap between the two dark ridges that lie in the roundish feature in <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

You are determined to push the volcanic idea aren't you? But there is no positive evidence for it. <br /><br />Lots of processes can causes fissures other than volcanism. Subsidence, volume changes, creep, tectonism. We have seen evidence for all of these (except tectonism) already at Meridiani. So until we have definite evidence of volcanism (and there is still no evidence for in situ volcanism anywhere in Meridiani) these processes have to be considered more likely. Of course we still still keep an eye out for volcanic features and evidence of other processes not yet observed.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br />available. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[exoscientist]

This shows a simulated view from NASA of Opportunity at the Cabo Frio promontory which would require the rover to go past the Sputnik "crater". <br />Perhaps this suggests an intention of moving the rover in that direction?<br /><br />http://marsrovers.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20061019a/Sol952B_P2388_L257atc_withNewRover_v008-B993R1_br2.jpg<br />Opportunity on 'Cabo Frio' (Simulated) <br />"This image superimposes an artist's concept of the Mars Exploration Rover Opportunity atop the 'Cabo Frio' promontory on the rim of 'Victoria Crater' in the Meridiani Planum region of Mars. It is done to give a sense of scale. The underlying image was taken by Opportunity's panoramic camera during the rover's 952nd Martian day, or sol (Sept. 28, 2006)."<br />http://marsrovers.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20061019a.html<br /><br /><br /> Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rlb2]

Ooops - loaded the wrong model deleted the old model loaded a more current <br />rendered model.<br /><br />Updated version of what the Balloon-Helicopter-Rover would look like descending <br />into Victoria Crater. <br /><br />For more details see:<br /><br />Arrow Space Innovations at:<br /><br />http://arrow-space-innovations.com/index.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

Finally got some new images coming in from the MER rovers. <br /><br />1P214657223E4L5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

1P214479670EL5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[3488]

Hi there. Exoscientist & Jon Clarke.<br /><br />I am feeling much better now & think that I am bouncing back (at long long last).<br /><br />Any suggestions about the Anatolian 'fault' seen early on during Opportunitiy's mission? I know it is a long while ago now, not long after leaving Eagle Crater.<br /><br />Could that be a fracture from impact or tectonic related activity?<br /><br />Victoria Crater, I just do not know. The Cape Verde outcrop reminds me of some of the volcanic layering that I have seen on the Canary Islands, particularly, Tenerife, Lanzarote & La Palma. I think that this feature is more complicated than we think. <br /><br />If Victoria Crater is an impact crater, where is the impact ejecta??<br /><br />Hi rlb2. It is great to see that you are still posting great images. DO you know if the prototypes of the craft depicted in your images are to be tested soon? <br /><br />They will have to be lifted some 30 KM / 19 miles above sea level, to be tested in an atmosphere as thin as Mars's. One problem though with testing, is that the Martioan surface gravity is 38% of Earth's. If they work above Earth, they will certainly work above Mars.<br /><br />It is great to be back.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

wow. those images are stunning. i've never seen pics of the martian surface like these recent ones of the cliffs and boulders. that is just a million bucks.

 

[brellis]

<font color="yellow">The Cape Verde outcrop reminds me of some of the volcanic layering that I have seen on the Canary Islands, particularly, Tenerife, Lanzarote & La Palma. I think that this feature is more complicated than we think.</font><br /><br />For many years, I've thought Mars resembled the landscape of Lanzarote. I did a concert there in 1997. What a cool place! It looks like a terraforming project after the volcanic eruptions of 1730 and 1824. The concert venue was in a volcanic tube deep underground; you practically had to spelunk your way to the stage!<br /><br />The host of the event was a guy named Ildefonso Aguilar. He made textural/landscape 'paintings' using crushed lava and sand from areas of the island. <br /><br />I greatly enjoyed touring the island and watching how the 'barren' landscape changed colors under the passing clouds. Nothing was ever static color; it was constantly changing.<br /><br />The vineyards were especially captivating to me -- the vines were growing at the base of enormous pits constructed to trap as much as possible of the precious moisture floating by in the fog and clouds. They made a semi-sweet Rosado wine that tasted amazing to me once I realized what it took to make it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

Lanzarote, that sounds like that island where one of the Lara Croft film started - at the wedding that triggers a quake <br /><br />not being a geologist or anything like that one thing got impressed on me after some years of looking at these pictures of planets and it is that there are severe limits to using our knowledge of Earth to judge what we see out there, problem is that what is for example something clearly made by watter flow here on Earth can be just flow of solids or near solids over the eons out there, I mean like asphalt we have on highways would flow away given enough centuries, even more solid substances would exhibit flow eventually, that's what is so misleading looking at those pictures from Mars and other planets, the time scale that surface there had to develop and change is something that never happens here on Earth, you never get that long period without some serious upheaval happening that completely erases past history of the terrain, on top of that you have unusual elements that we have almost no experience with on grand scales in our nature here on Earth and if you have some insight into physics and matterials you get more humble the more you see of the planets and confront the facts from experts, what you'd swear was this or that didn't turn up to be that at all, you just get fooled by the unusual environment in addition to the stupendous and mind boggling times scales the surface of planets had to metamorphose and it may very well resemble something one has seen someplace on Earth but its just resemblance, causes and even matterial are likely completely different<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

<font color="yellow">what you'd swear was this or that didn't turn up to be that at all, you just get fooled by the unusual environment in addition to the stupendous and mind boggling times scales the surface of planets had to metamorphose and it may very well resemble something one has seen someplace on Earth but its just resemblance, causes and even matterial are likely completely different <br /></font><br /><br />yes. this is very true. <br /><br /><br />we often cannot know what we are really looking at. to say yes or no about vulcanism on Mars is irresolute either way. we don't really know much about Mars, despite huge leaps in knowledge comparatively speaking. we've barely begun to really know Mars. it is simultaneously Earth-like and entirely alien.

 

[brellis]

As long as you keep an open mind, it's okay to draw analogies between the images received from other planets like Mars and known locations on earth. <br /><br />In the case of Mars, we can draw many comparisons with earth. If I'm not mistaken (IINM?) the rovers have established that Mars was once 'warmer and wetter' - enough so that indeed, what look like ancient lake beds were in fact ancient lake beds.<br /><br />The debate over volcanism has support for pro and con from the scientific data and the fantastic images in this thread. I celebrate that fact! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[3488]

I know the Canary Islands extremely well, having visited all seven of the main ones (Lanzarote, Fuerteventura, Gran Canaria, Tenerife, La Gomera, La Palma & El Hierro) along side tiny Isla Graciosa & Isla Les Lobos.<br /><br />The thing is is that all seven islands are very different (Tenerife, Lanzarote, La Palma & El Hierro are still active, Gran Canaria long term dormant & Fuerteventura & La Gomera inactive & are showing signs of erosion), remind me very much of the surface images of Mars from ALL of the five successful landers to date.<br /><br />Mount Teide & the Parc Nacional del Canadas del Teide on Tenerife has been used for several Mars scenes in Total Recall & more recently the ESA has been there with Bridget, the prototype ESA Exo Mars Rover for testing.<br /><br />This is why I find Victoria Crater a bit of a quandry. In many ways it looks volcanic IMO, in others does not.<br /><br />Hopefully MER B Opportunity will be able to tell us for sure.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

it is amazing how, to this day, with stunningly detailed photographs of the surface of Mars, in the best possible detail ever known to date, we are unable to ascertain anything conclusive about the place. <br /><br />we hear the same things said like "wow, it looks volcaninc... no... it looks like a big impact event.... no.... it looks like an ancient lake bed.... a shoreline.... " and then nobody agrees it is any of these processes working. so Mars is simply not beholden to any Earth-like geological processes? it just got that way? a landscape of what appears to be pumice or cooled lava flows is not this?<br /><br />so when does the day come when we say we know anything? all of these wonderful pictures, then, are beautiful but that is all they are?<br /><br />my point is that in life, it is possible to actually assess what is there by simply looking at it. one can know what happened by first glance without decades of debate and paralysis by analysis. <br /><br />indeed, many things in the scientific process cinch along like acts of congress for a reason, to avoid haste judgements that are flawed conclusions. things in life, too, are not always as they initially appear. <br /><br />so i'm just wondering how many more rovers and super mega-pixel resolutions were going to have and yet not know anything more than just how pretty the landscape appears? where is the magic rover mission that brings all of the experts to the same conclusions? <br /><br />if Mars is truly only a snapshot of a frozen and dead world, with it's active processes finished aeons ago, then science will never know anything conclusive about the place because nothing can ever be caught in the act. all we will ever have is educated speculations and some drinks and laughs. . <br /><br /><br />