Images of Mars -- Part Three

exoscientist · Oct 15, 2006

Saw this image of Beacon Hill in Victoria crater on MarkCarey.com/mars: http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/269547090/ The roundish boulders remind me of pillow lava, which occurs during underwater eruptions or when lava flows into water: http://or.water.usgs.gov/projs_dir/crbg/photos/flowbottom.jpg Columbia River Basalt Stratigraphy in Oregon. http://or.water.usgs.gov/projs_dir/crbg/flowbottom.html Note also the similarity of the striations in the boulders in the Beacon Hill image to the striations in this pillow lava: http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/Images/Noaa/pillow_basalt_crop_l.jpg LAVA AND WATER. http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/lava_water.html Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

rlb2 · Oct 15, 2006

1P212786628EL5M1.5 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

JonClarke · Oct 15, 2006

The roundish boulders remind me of pillow lava, which occurs during underwater eruptions or when lava flows into water Every in situ rock we have seen at Meridiani is sedimentary. The rocks that underlie the boulders are sedimentary, with cross bedding. The morphology of the boulders is wrong for pillow lavas and right for impact fractured boulders. The striations are consistent with wind etch of bedding. There is no reason to think that these are volcanic. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

bonzelite · Oct 15, 2006

Its NOT a volcanic crater. It's an impact crater. Nothing more. wtf? how the frak do you know that? it resembles nothing of an impact crater. it could be a sink hole. an ancient one, albeit. the last thing i'd think it to be would be of impact origin. wrong morphology.

JonClarke · Oct 16, 2006

Mars is a very moribund, if not dead planet when it come to vulcanism. Pursuing this tack that VC is a volcanic crater does NOT improve your credibility, here, or anywhere else where there is an informed audience. Steve: Bob has not said these feature are recent pillow lavas. Therefore you assertion that Mars is geologically moribund, if not dead, is irrelevant. As a side comment there is good, evidence from crater counts for geologically recent (few My) volcanicism and discharge at various locations on Mars, so your comment about Mars being moribund if not dead is not only irrelevant, it is also very likely wrong. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

rlb2 · Oct 17, 2006

Below is an image from MRO I sharpened and colorize from the original false color image to look approximately like a true color image. A portion of the Mawrth Vallis region of Mars is seen in this image from the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera on NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter. The Mawrth Vallis region holds special interest because of the presence of phyllosilicate (clay) minerals which form only if water is available, first identified in data from the OMEGA spectrometer on the European Space Agency's Mars Express orbiter. Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter's Compact Reconnaissance Imaging Spectrometer for Mars has identified aluminum-rich and iron-rich clays, each with a unique distribution. On Earth such clays occur in (among other environments) weathered volcanic rocks and hydrothermal systems, where volcanic activity and water interact. Besides acquiring monochromatic images of 6-kilometer (3.7-mile) swath width and variable length, HiRISE can also image the central 20 percent of the swath width in color. Color images can help resolve ambiguities in image interpretation and will enable researchers to place compositional data from other experiments into more specific geologic context. HiRISE can "see" color in the visible range (the red, green, and blue portions of the spectrum) and beyond (in the near infrared). Image TRA_000847_2055 was taken by HiRISE on Oct. 1, 2006. The image is centered at 25.3 degrees latitude, 340.7 degrees east longitude. The range to the target site was 284 kilometers (178 miles). At this distance the image scale is 28 centimeters (11 inches) per pixel (with 1 x 1 binning) so objects about 84 centimeters (33 inches) across are resolved. The image shown here has been map-projected to 25 centimeters (10 inches) per pixel and north is up. To see original NASA <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

nazcalito · Oct 17, 2006

you did a gorgeous job! can you tell me how you did it?

bonzelite · Oct 17, 2006

it looks as if the entire ruddy and pockmarked landscape is sheered off clean and flat, a strange plateau structure.

JonClarke · Oct 17, 2006

Look like a geat place to explore but a horrible place to land! Mwath, BTW, is one of the MSL candidates. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

rlb2 · Oct 17, 2006

can you tell me how you did it? Actually most of the work was done for me already. To take the images of Mars and recombine them like the MER rovers is a lot of work because the images were separate filter images meant more for research, the color images we see was an after thought. But with the MRO images a person just starting out will have a lot easier time to sharpen them because they are already close to what you would consider true color. Sometimes when you do something an opposite effect will happen - you have to also correct the opposite effect of what you are doing. There are a lot of variables to contend with, like higher percent from the total light reaching the surface of Mars that is UV than we have here on earth. I will get back to you on how I did the MRO images later on right now I am stretched for time. Keep tune in I hope to do this here before leaving on vacation. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Oct 17, 2006

a strange plateau structure. Yes indeed a very colorful one at that. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Oct 17, 2006

Look like a geat place to explore but a horrible place to land! I agree it does make one hungry to explore, especially with the different types of clays. Some of the most inhospitable places to land hold some of the richest treasures that would help expand our understanding of Mars. That’s why I proposed using surface controlled balloons in a previous post. With a balloon tethered above there are many different ways to escape a situation that would cripple most missions. For instant a helicopter like airfoil could be tethered above the surface device to lift it out of harms way. A helicopter type device would never fly on Mars by itself but one that has its mass totally supported by the balloon only need's to lift the surface device, a rover or an impact resistant ball. The helicopter type airfoil can also help land a surface device on descent. That idea is only one of the many different types of deployments that can be used that I listed at my website see link below in the paper called: Results of Design and Testing Using Wind Energy to Pull a Surface Rover on Mars, or Titan When we go to Mars we should have something with confidence that we can explore these hard to reach places with instead of settling for a place that has less scientific importance because it is easier to land in. http://members.cox.net/mars.windsurfer/index.htm <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

vandivx · Oct 17, 2006

imagine those rusty colored crates filled with aquamarine water we need more power sent over to enable us to take all color pics, not just the '20% swath' they gave us finger, we want whole arm LOL vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

bonzelite · Oct 18, 2006

what are the super dark areas? almost black?

exoscientist · Oct 18, 2006

This 3-D image on Unmannedspaceflight.com shows what could be columnar joints, though degraded, in the right center of the image: Duck Bay, Scouting the rim. http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=8073 http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=3257&hl=anaglyph&st=379 Compare to the columnar joints here: Figure 1. Columnar joints in the Traveler Rhyolite. Regularly spaced joints like these developed as the ash flow cooled slowly, causing it to contract. These are seen in a longitudinal view showing the length of the columns to be about a meter. On the upper surface, the columns are nearly hexagonal (like a honeycomb) in cross section. http://www.maine.gov/doc/nrimc/mgs/explore/bedrock/sites/may00-1.jpg http://www.maine.gov/doc/nrimc/mgs/explore/bedrock/sites/may00-1.htm And this shows columnar joints in association with pillow lava: Columbia River Gorge http://c3po.barnesos.net/homepage/lpl/fieldtrips/CRB/jason/medium_dscn0778.jpg http://c3po.barnesos.net/homepage/lpl/fieldtrips/CRB/jason/ColumbiaGorge.html The possibilility of finding columnar joints and pillow lava on Mars was examined in this report: THE FORMATION OF COLUMNAR JOINTS ON EARTH AND MARS. M.P. Milazzo, L.P. Keszthelyi, <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

bonzelite · Oct 19, 2006

you're suggesting we're looking at an ancient caldera? i can buy into that. the martian landscapes, many of them photographed by the rovers and posted in this thread or in another by rib2 shows characteristic lava rocks (or what so appears as this to my hobbyists eyes --the telltale heavily pored/spongy looking rocks) stewn about the place in certain areas. it would surprise me more if Mars never had volcanism, being that it is a rocky planet. as well, i would bet money that there is still active volcanism today on Mars, at least deep magma chambers. maybe geysers or vents.

3488 · Oct 19, 2006

Hi every one. I am back (for the moment anyway). Been extremely busy & my health has not been too good at all. Been very unwell. I think that you will find that Victoria Crater IS a volcanic crater. No doubt about it at all. As exoscientist said, the forms of the columnar formations (Giant Causeway, Cadar Idris & the island of Staffa in the UK, as well as much of the geology in the Canary Islands & elsewhere), this is evident. The moment Opportunity arrived & transmitted the images, I knew straight away that we are looking at a volcanic feature, not an impact crater. You will find that the alcoves are also further evidence. Also there was little to suggest secondary impacts. Before Opportunity reached the much smaller Endurance, there were lots of small pits, etc. With Victoria, very little. An important first in planetary exploration. We have not even done this on the moon!! Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Oct 19, 2006

Sorry to hear you have been unwell Andrew. I hope your health improves soon. I can't say I see anything volcanic here at all. No columnar jointing, no pillow lavas. Just an eroded impact crater in well bedded sediments. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Oct 19, 2006

Hi Jon, I am still really struggling, so I do not know how long I will be well enough to continue, but the tall outcrop (can't think what it is called) appears to be columnar lava, & also recent raw images from Opportunity also appear to show 'pillows'. Chances are Jon, you are right, maybe it an eroded impact feature, but I am just not sure, seeing as I have visited many volcanic features myself, it seem to suggest volcanism. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

exoscientist · Oct 19, 2006

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Every in situ rock we have seen at Meridiani is sedimentary. The rocks that underlie the boulders are sedimentary, with cross bedding. The morphology of the boulders is wrong for pillow lavas and right for impact fractured boulders. The striations are consistent with wind etch of bedding. There is no reason to think that these are volcanic. Jon<hr /></blockquote> John a volcanic ash origin has been offered for the sedimentary rocks seen at Meridiani: A volcanic environment for bedrock diagenesis at Meridiani Planum on Mars. Thomas M. McCollom & Brian M. Hynek NATURE|Vol 438|22/29 December 2005 http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~meech/NAIJC/papers/MeridianiPlanum_Nature2005_Volcanic.pdf IS THE CHEMISTRY OF THE BEDROCKS AT MERIDIANI PLANUM INDICATIVE OF A VOLCANIC OR SEDIMENTARY/EVAPORITE ORIGIN? T. M. McCollom and B. M. Hynek, Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics, UCB392, University of Colorado, Boulder CO 80309. *****@lasp.colorado.edu. http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2006/pdf/2023.pdf There actually has been seen at least one basaltic rock in Meridiani, "bounce rock". This was described as coming from outside Meridiani but this was because it was different from the others then seen. It's possible others of basaltic origin will be found especially since the origin of not all the rocks seen so far have been definitively determined. If you take a look at some of the images of pillow lava rock available on the web, there are many examples where it is more of a roundish, though flattened form, rather than a bulbous shape. These images are not enough to determine if the rock is volcanic. One possibility might be t <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

exoscientist · Oct 19, 2006

Here is an image of pillow lava of a more flattened appearance: http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/australia/pillow_b.jpg "Pillow basalt (upper half of photo) indicate that some lava flows advanced into water. The light colored layer is lake sediments. The presence of lake sediments indicate a reasonable pause between the eruption that formed hyaloclastite and the emplacement of the pillow lava. The reddish-layered deposit in front of the volcanologist is hyaloclastite, a type of pyroclastic rock that from when lava and water interact." http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/australia/monaro.html This also shows a thin, white sedimentary layer below the pillow lava. This may be analogous to some of the thin white layers seen in Victoria crater: http://uplink.space.com/attachments//594101-Victoria-color-annot.5.jpg and http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=8055 Hyaloclastite is also seen in association with the pillow lava and the sedimentary layer. Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Oct 19, 2006

The chemistry of the rocks at Meridiani is consistent with them being sediments and inconsistent with them being volcanics. The mineralogy of the rocks at Meridiani is consistent with them being sediments and inconsistent with them being volcanics. The textures of the rocks at Meridiani is consistent with them being sediments and inconsistent with them being volcanics. The structures of the rocks at Meridiani is consistent with them being sediments and inconsistent with them being volcanics. McCollom and Hynek are simply wrong, on multiple counts. Which is why they have not convinced many scientists. Bounce rock was not in situ, and is almost certainly impact ejecta that may be hundreds of km from its source. There is a small possibility (IMHO) it may be a basaltic meteorite, although it lacks the surface textures characteristics of meteorites. Eiether way it has no bearing on the origin of the sediments at Meridiani I am very familiar with pillow lavas, and have encountered them in many places (Archaean, Proterozoic, Cambrian, Oligocene of Australia, Triassic of New Zealand, Jurassic of Chile) and in many contexts (out crops, drill core, fresh and weathered, deformed and undeformed, altered and unaltered). The examples you posit from Meridiani look nothing like them. Hyaloclastic (literally "fragments of glass") is a texture that results from a process where volanic rocks are rapidly quenched by water leading to extensive fragmentation. It is not something that is readily determined by spectroscopy as the minerals found in hyaloclastites (glasses, palagonites) can be easily formed through other processes (normal cooling and deuteric alteration) and obliterated through weathering and alternation. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Oct 19, 2006

I am still really struggling, so I do not know how long I will be well enough to continue, That's really bad, I hope you will be able to contribute with us for a long time yet. Best wishes Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

bonzelite · Oct 20, 2006

earlier you suggested the area may be due to a collapse of the terrain into a sinkhole. this idea is nixed? it looks very much like that to me based on simply looking at the nature of the rim, the edges, as they appear to be jagged and resulting from sudden removal of ground. there are no ramparts or typically impact-laden traits to the area. i know i'm not a geologist and i trust your judgements about the non-volcanic origin of the site.

JonClarke · Oct 20, 2006

My sink hole idea refered to the feature known as Sputnik. However the detailed MRO imagery has led me to think that Sputnik is just another impact feature. Alas, another beautiful hypothesis slain by ugly facts. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

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