Japan's Lunar Probe

[spaceinvador_old]

It took video footage in HDTV? Oh my, you can't even see the stars in space. Once again we are kept from seeing the true visual of space from a human point of view. Does technology really suck this much? Cripes!!!!!!!! I'm so disappointed, this is utterly unbelievable.

 

[3488]

SPACEINVADOR,<br /><br />This sounds like one of the favourites of the Apollo moon hoax woo woos.<br /><br />The reason why the stars are not visible is because they are far too faint to show up<br />with exposures set for the sunlit Moon & Earth.<br /><br />The sunlit Earth is several million times brighter than the brightest stars, as will be<br />the sunlit moon from low moon orbit.<br /><br />I do not know HOW MANY TIMES we have been through this, again & again & again & again & again <br />& again & again & again & again & again, & aga......<br /><br />I wish there was a head banging or dead horse flogging icon <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /> .<br /><br />Bit peeved at this keep cropping up & keep having to explain it.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[mithridates]

Andrew, you should know better than that. There's an icon for everything imaginable:<br /><br />http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/deadhorse.gif<br /><br />^-^ <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

I don't know if the instantaneous dynamic range of the human eye is that much different from that of the video camera. The eye however shifts it's dynamic range as it scans around. You could achieve the same effect with the camera via multiple exposures and recombining but then they'd no doubt be accused of doctoring the video. I guess it depends on what you're trying to achieve, a pretty picture or a scientific image.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>

 

[spaceinvador_old]

No, I don't think it's a hoax. *rolls eyes* I think it's just disappointing we can never... get a beautiful shot of the stars in space from any of our manned or unmanned space craft or from the point of being on the moon. <br /><br />Please provide me some nice clear shots of the stars taken from anywhere... in space. And I mean ones that aren't doctored. Nice and clear ones please...<br /><br /><br />

 

[MeteorWayne]

That can be done.<br />What do you think the images from the Hubble telescope are? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[ashish27]

The Japanese lunar probe's images are breathtaking. Please try to appreciate that effort by a nation much smaller in size and population than yours. And Andrew is perfectly right on why the stars are not showing.<br />Its just like trying to photograph the moon from Earth, the stars don't show.

 

[vandivx]

I haven't seen the movies yet but suspect that HDTV in this context doesn't mean the same as that TV norm but maybe just a 'high quality in astrophotography' equivalent in comparison to normal TV vs HDTV, that is the quality is improvement over previous shots but one shouldn't expect real HDTV quality<br /><br />human eye is a wonder that today's cameras can't even approach yet even if they can best it in various delimited areas<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi SPACEINVADOR,<br /><br />Sorry about my rant post.<br /><br />I mis understood, I thought this was going to descend into another woo woo discussion.<br /><br />It is just that we know Apollo was genuine, but we are having to defend ourselves more & <br />more often now as those who think 'they know better' & 'know the truth' seem to be<br />coming out of the wood work.<br /><br />I left an Astronomy Group, because the majority of the members kept arguing with me about Apollo,<br />the skies on Mars being blue, NASA hiding the truth, etc.<br /><br />Just could not do with it. I also have long term health issues, to live with & that <br />does not help either with my mood sometimes.<br /><br />Also on the 'P' threads, there is much such nonsense too. That's why I got cross.<br /><br />Anyway, please look at this thread on this link. Astronomy from Mars.<br /><br />Plenty of stars in the Martian night skies.<br /><br />Also please look at these: Pleiades / M45 from the Cassini Spacecraft.<br /><br />Phobos & Deimos pass Sagittarius from MER A Spirit.<br /><br />Stars various from the Cassini Spacecraft.<br /><br />Globular Cluster 47 Tucanae from Deep Impact.<br /><br />Wild Duck Cluster / M11 from Deep Impact.<br /><br />NGC 3532 from Deep Impact.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[spaceinvador_old]

3488 it's all good. Here's what I was really trying to get at. I want to see some pictures or better some video footage(s) of like a person doing a space walk with stars in the background of space. Even a simple video from one of the astronauts taking simple video of space from one of the windows. Why is this simple... request so impossible to have done?... <br /><br />And 3488, I hope you are feeling better and that whatever is wrong with your health that it is curable my friend.

 

[alokmohan]

And down with hoax phobia.Have trust on scientists.Journalist,film maker tell this to make money.

 

[MeteorWayne]

You still have the same problem. The astronaut would be much brighter than anything else in the scene.<br /><br />If you take a photo of a star party showing people at their scopes, you won't be able to see the stars.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[tom_hobbes]

Actually there are a small number of Apollo photo's which have stars visible in them. I downloaded most of the re-scanned images, digitized directly from the original negatives here, and in a small number of them where the bulk of the photograph is of a darker area, like the shadowed side of a lunar module, stars are actually visible in the background because the exposure was long enough to record them. Hoax theorists, stick that in yer pipe and smoke it! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#339966"> I wish I could remember<br /> But my selective memory<br /> Won't let me</font><font size="2" color="#99cc00"> </font><font size="3" color="#339966"><font size="2">- </font></font><font size="1" color="#339966">Mark Oliver Everett</font></p><p> </p> </div>

 

[3488]

How are these?<br /><br />Pleiades, Aries & Triangulum from Apollo 15 CM.<br /><br />Castor, Pollux & Venus from Apollo 15 CM.<br /><br />Sagitarrius & Jupiter from the Apollo 17 CM. <br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[kelvinzero]

Im going to assume SPACEINVADOR is just making a sensible complaint about the lousy dynamic range of video footage, and I guess film has problems with this too when dealing with tiny pinpricks of light. For everyday video it is awful.<br /><br />I've often thought this would be easy to solve: Just use a plane of glass to split an image between two syncronised video cameras. The angle of the glass would adjust the fraction of light sent to each. Set one to get the foreground and another to get the background. Then you could blend the syncronised footage back together in post using either the pure white or pure black areas as a mask. Lots of cool filming tricks you could do with a tool like that.<br /><br />The human eye may have the same problems but our brains often hide them from us. We may only literally 'see' the stars when we are not looking at the bright object, but because we know we will see them whenever we look off to one side and concentrate, in our minds they are there all the time.

 

[spaceinvador_old]

There just isn't much reward when it comes to pictures from space, IMO. We can take great photographs from earth of space/stars, but we can't get those same quality or even better pictures from space?... I'm not talking about pictures from telescopes. <br /><br />Ok, in the Lunar Probe pictures we can see the earth just as if it were being viewed at night, even though it is day on that spot of the moon. Are cameras like the human eyes? Does the pupil not dilate due to the brightness reflected off the surface of the moon? I think not. If I was on the moon where the Lunar Probe is and I was looking up into the "blackness" of space and my eyes weren't affected from the reflected light of the moon's surface, shouldn't I be able to see something up there in space? Come on.

 

[nimbus]

It's definitely feasible and probably not too tedious to manage with HDR post-processing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

THe moon's surface and the earth are very close in brightness.<br />The lunar surface is actuclly very dark, like asphalt.<br />The earth reflects much more of the light that hits it. So an exposure can capture both.<br /><br />From earth orbit (or the surface of the earth) the full moon is />10,000 times brighter than the brightest star (Sirius). That's a lot of dynamic range to try and capture. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[nimbus]

It's not impossible, anyone has their eyesight as a perfect reference to go by.<br />Is there no single camera that can capture at both the stars and the moon's brightness? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi SPACEINVADOR,<br /><br />Have you seen this?<br /><br />Very interesting I thought. Astronomy from the International Space Station.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>It's not impossible, anyone has their eyesight as a perfect reference to go by.<br />Is there no single camera that can capture at both the stars and the moon's brightness?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Oh yes, but the Moon will be just a big white blur -- it'll be severely overexposed.<br /><br />In truth, one of the biggest problems with SPACEINVADOR's complaint is that it assumes that what you think you see is what your eye is transmitting to your brain at that very second. It's not. The image you see is post-processed considerably by your brain before you experience it. You can build a camera that works exactly the same as the human eye and take a picture, but the results will look very unfamiliar to you. Seriously.<br /><br />Color will be intense in a disk in the middle, but fade rapidly to very muted colors outside the disk, going to grayscale at the outer perimeter of the visual field. Objects in the color disk will be in sharp focus; anything outside will be blurry, and have lower resolution. If the image is taken at night, colors will be muted to absent, and that central disk will actually be the dimmest part of the image. Some distance to one side of the sharp, colorful disk will be a blank void where no image is captured. Oh, and the image will be inverted.<br /><br />Your brain does a fantastic amount of post-processing. Do you ever noticed your blind spots? Or the fact that you can really only detect color well in your fovea? Or that the outermost regions of your eye, though low in resolution and lacking color capabilities, are better at picking up low levels of light? Or even that only the fovea is in focus? Probably not; even if you know that your brain post-processes the image, you're so accustomed to it that it's virtually impossible to *not* see the post-processing in action. There are a few tricks that can be done, like tricks that make objects disappear by making their images fall o <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

Dark adatation and like.

 

[nimbus]

Thanks for the very informative reply. I still think that you could post-process a batch of images taken from a same lens and in quick succession to look like what Spaceinvader envisions. <br />That would probably not look quite real, though. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bguth]

I have an unfiltered cell phone camera that's not even as good as Kodak film, that would have included at least a few of the brightest stars, and especially having to include the extra special albedo worth of Venus that should be nearly impossible to avoid in future images.<br /><br />Notice how JAXA turned off those color pixels of our moon, yet gave us full pixel color on behalf of Earth. <br />-- Brad Guth

 

[bguth]

But some stars and for certain other planets like Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn do in fact show as imaged from Earth, and only much better yet if obtained as optically unfiltered and from space.<br /><br />That physically dark moon of ours is almost like a ball of coal, at 0.11 albedo isn't exactly reflecting the visual spectrum at much greater than 150 w/m2. <br />-- Brad Guth