Klipper update thread (part 1)

[shoogerbrugge]

On the newer winged design they indeed seem not to be present. Or at least not in the graphics I've seen. Maybe they have been cut to loose some weight, which was needed to make it fit on the Zenit.<br /><br />I guess the Klipper when attached to the ISS can power down, or use power from the ISS. For in orbit operations I guess the Parom will provide power.

 

[teije]

<font color="yellow"> For in orbit operations I guess the Parom will provide power. </font><br /><br />... but that would mean that they would ALWAYS have to launch with a Parom module. That sounds like a too big launch mass to me. <br /><br />I guess I'll have to wait and see...<br /><br />Teije

 

[nacnud]

No it means that they would <b>have</b> to meet up with Parom or deorbit before the batteries ran out. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[teije]

Oh ok, I wasn't sure how Parom worked. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br />I tried to look it up on astronautix, but i couldn't find Parom. Anyone has a link?<br /><br />Thx adv!<br />Teije <br /><br />edit for spelling....

 

[nacnud]

Your best bet is to search space dot com, there is as much info on here about Parom as anywhere else.

 

[shoogerbrugge]

actually there is a link and a picture of the Parom in this thread. Just make sure that you see all pages and search for Parom in this thread, you'll find it.<br /><br />Good luck

 

[shoogerbrugge]

*bump* with less good news sadly enough. Sorry for the duplicate thread, but this is just for storage and historical reasons. <br /><br />from here at space.com <br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><b>Europeans Unlikely to Back Russia's Manned Space Vehicle</b> <br /><br />European governments tentatively have declined to take a role in Russia’s Clipper manned space vehicle project, saying Europe would not have control over the program and would be limited to being a small industrial contributor, according to European government officials.<br /><br />European Space Agency (ESA) government ministers discussed a contribution to Clipper and a half-dozen other proposed space investments Dec. 5 during the first of two scheduled days of meetings here. No decisions will be made until the 17 governments finish their deliberations Dec. 6. <br /><br />But the Clipper program won very little support during the first day’s discussions, according to French Research Minister Francois Goulard. ESA spokesman Franco Bonacina said after the session that the Clipper proposal — a two-year research effort valued at about 51 million euros ($59.8 million) — had not found much backing.<br /><br />Russia has proposed that ESA and Japan join Clipper as an alternative to NASA’s Crew Exploration Vehicle. Japanese officials have said they are evaluating the idea and that they would be more likely to join the Russian program if Europe did.<br /><br />Government officials said debate continued on how much Europe should spend on its science program in the coming years, and on its role in the U.S.-led international space station. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br /><br />Still can't quite believe it, I had hoped that ESA would support it. Major bummer for certain. Now lets just hope that Russia drops the idea of giving the Clipper wings, and just goes back to the liftingbody/parachute option, seems simpler and b

 

[teije]

Yes sad.<br />However, there is always the chance that this is just a political game. They may just be saying: "we'll join you, but we want a bigger piece of the pie."<br />Or... they want to get a better deal by making the russians squirm (supposing they can't pay for the development on their own.)<br /><br />Agreed, these scenario's aren't very likely, but, you can never be sure from news releases like this what's REALLY on their agenda.<br />

 

[alpha_centauri]

This is something I think could well be happening as I indicated in the ESA says "No" to Clipper thread.<br /><br />If the ministers were against Clipper then why didn’t they just refuse funding instead of deferring the decision? Even the most pro-Clipper countries were against confirming funding at this point in time, this isn’t a sudden change of heart.<br /><br />The webcast of the post-meeting press conference on the ESA website contained some interesting comments about the decision too.<br /><br />

 

[erioladastra]

part of the problems is that ATV has been a mild nightmare for ESA and has not gone smoothly in their eyes. I think they are a little reluctant to jump in with the Russians. Plus they are very, very tight on their budget and considering major cuts in the ISS support.

 

[gunsandrockets]

"Now lets just hope that Russia drops the idea of giving the Clipper wings, and just goes back to the liftingbody/parachute option, seems simpler and better to me"<br /><br />I agree. I think the wing system was something the Russians added just to make the Kliper more appealing to the ESA.<br /><br /> I think the Russians erred though by insisting on using a modified Soyuz launch vehicle for the Kliper. At least if they wanted to make a deal with the ESA. No way would the ESA help the Russians fund development of a Russian launch vehicle that could directly compete with the ESA's Ariane V.<br /><br />It seems like a natural to mate the Kliper (which doesn't yet have a Russian launch vehicle) with the Ariane V (which doesn't yet have a manned spacecraft). Whether the Russians would abide such a deal is another question.

 

[nacnud]

Maybe, maybe not. There would be a lot of cost involed in man-rateing the Ariane V, even if it was supposed to launch the Hermies. Perhaps if the Klipper could be developed as a true partnership as the Concorde was...

 

[syndroma]

Three proposals were officially submitted today to Roskosmos. Press-release:<br />http://www.roscosmos.ru/NewsDoSele.asp?NEWSID=1322 (Russian)<br /><br />Interesting photo:<br />http://www.roscosmos.ru/PictFiles/DSC09517.jpg<br />Sevastyanov (head of RKK Energia) holds sheet of paper with new Kliper concept, supposedly.<br /><br />I'm attaching enlarged picture of the concept.

 

[ragnorak]

<br />Interesting. ESA is still interested in Clipper according to this;<br /><br />http://62.189.48.33/Articles/2006/01/10/203942/ESA+keen+to+reach+Kliper+agreement+with+Russia.html<br />

 

[mikkelrj]

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060117/43045501.html<br /><br />"Although ESA head Jean-Jacques Dordain said last summer that the ESA Council at ministerial level had not decided to participate directly in the Clipper project, it had agreed to allocate 300 million euros over the next three years to the development of advanced technologies for new transport spacecraft. The most likely recipient is thought to be the Clipper."

 

[avmich]

Some news regarding Klipper were told at the Korolev's academical conference.

 

[john_316]

Pretty Pic!<br /><br />How much does that thing weight again? As proposed in the Picture?<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />

 

[syndroma]

Kliper-Heavy (with orbital module)

 

[themanwithoutapast]

Could you provide a link to the site where this pic comes from? (does not matter if it is in Russian)

 

[alpha_centauri]

Interesting, thankyou.<br /><br />This is getting a little confusing, is it known whether the Energia proposal will use Kliper-heavy or Kliper-light? I'm aware that pic came from a recent russian magazine with an article from Energia's head, does that mean that that is the official final design? It's just that the presentation Energia gave included a Soyuz LV and Kliper docked with Parom and it has me confused as to what the final proposal is. I know we won't know the details until a winner is announced, I just wondered whether there was anymore news on this.

 

[syndroma]

Kliper-heavy is the proposal submitted to Roskosmos. Roskosmos requested proposals for a "spacecraft" not a "space system" - that's why Kliper-Parom doesn't fit. But Energia itself is aimed at Kliper-light + Parom system. It is possible Parom will start flying some time after Kliper-heavy. But all this will depend on a LV availability.<br /><br />Yes, that pic is a scan from "Rossiyskiy kosmos" magazine.

 

[alpha_centauri]

Thanks again, that clears things up a little bit.