Klipper update thread (part 1)

[shoogerbrugge]

On the otherhand you would have two similary capable vehicles at a single launch site, the Ariane 5G with a LEO capacity of 14.500kg and the Onega/Soyuz3 with a LEO capacity of 13.500kg.<br /><br />It would defeat the idea of incoperating the Soyuz family into the ESA family for its mid-range capacity.<br /><br />Or do you think its possible to fly two different boosters that kinda look the same from the same pad. Because the engines will be different, even the diameter of the core stage and 2nd/3rd stage will be larger. It would be nice if thats possible, but I don't know how flexible they can make a pad.

 

[nacnud]

The Ariane V ES can put 21,000kg into LEO. But it is the Arianes GTO payload that is substantialy more than the Soyuz, 10 tonnes for the Ariane V ESA compared to 3 tonnes for the Soyuz 2 probably between 4 and 7 tonnes for the Soyuz 3.<br /><br />As for the one pad supporting variouse Soyuz derivatives I've no idea, but I susspect it is possible with certain modifications. It' all depends on how much ESA wants the Klipper as I don't think any Soyuz derivatives will be developed without it.

 

[thinice]

A quote from the Soyuz 2:<br /><i>The Soyuz rocket is the workhorse of the Russian human spaceflight missions and has been used for that purpose longer than any other spacecraft. In the 1950s it began transporting cosmonauts into space...</i><br />Pardon me? <img src="/images/icons/shocked.gif" />

 

[nacnud]

The Soyuz is a development of the R-7. Vostok 8K72K was used to send Yuri Gagarin in a Vostok into space in 1961 was also a development of the R-7. However the R7 first flew in May 1957. <br /><br />However it is odd that the site claims that cosmanauts were in space since the 50s, what are the Russians not telling us?? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[tap_sa]

Laika the barking cosmonaut, 1957 <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[soccerguy789]

Anyone got any good links to Klipper sites. For the life of me I can't find any good articles or diagrams.

 

[hiro2002]

Russia asks Japan to join development of new Kliper spacecraft<br /><br />http://asia.news.yahoo.com/051013/kyodo/d8d6t5io0.html<br /><br />It's good news.<br />I hope it.<br />

 

[nacnud]

Good news <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <br /><br />A problem shared is a problem halved.

 

[najab]

><i>A problem shared is a problem halved.</i><p>OTOH, it also means the management is doubled! <img src="/images/icons/shocked.gif" /></p>

 

[shoogerbrugge]

That might not even be a problem, most of the time its politics thats the distrurbing factor in international space ventures. When things are organised like a company, it can work just fine, but when you got politicians instead of managers leading a programm, that might turn sour<br /><br />So right now ESA and JAXA are studying the Clipper, lets hope they fancy it <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[nacnud]

How can they refuse? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[shoogerbrugge]

From flight international: article<br /><br /><b>Europe adds Kliper to Aurora plan</b> <br /><br />A two-year, €50 million ($60.5 million) evaluation of Russia’s proposed Kliper six-crew reusable spacecraft is now part of the European Space Agency’s updated Aurora exploration programme. If approved by this December’s ESA ministerial meeting, the study will not be overseen by ESA’s launchers directorate, which is developing an Ariane 5 replacement by 2020.<br /><br />The Kliper work scope will include ESA member states seeking “system-level” contributions to the vehicle’s development, not just providing components. As a result, the agency’s Kliper programme has been placed within Aurora, which last November was moved to ESA’s directorate of human spaceflight, microgravity and exploration. <br /><br />Russia’s timetable for development of the Kliper may present problems for ESA involvement. “The Russians have already started the Kliper work. They have a very aggressive development schedule with a target date of 2011 [for its maiden flight],” says Aurora programme manager Bruno Gardini, who will attend a NASA meeting on exploration in November where he will propose further co-operation. <br /><br />The new Aurora programme’s core activities still include technology studies for a Mars sample return mission, exploration architecture design and analysis of future lunar surface research. But there are two new technology demonstration missions that will flight test an internationally compatible docking system and life support technology. They will cost up to €150 million from 2006 to 2008. <br /><br />While the programme still has as its main focus the €600 million ExoMars rover mission, this too has changed. It has been delayed by two years to launch in 2011, there is no orbiter acting as a communications relay and the descent module will have

 

[syndroma]

Rumors (just rumors!):<br />- BO<br />+ Parom<br />See attached.

 

[gladiator1332]

Man, that is a cool looking spacecraft. Everytime I see a new update, they've just made that thing look better and better. Not sure if they will need the wings for lunar flights, but for the time being, they will be great for ISS crew return, tourism, and anything else the ESA/RSA can think to do in LEO.

 

[vt_hokie]

Indeed, it is a cool looking spacecraft. Seems like the Russians are moving forward while the United States is regressing.

 

[john_316]

Well when they actually start building it then I'll be surprised but until then we are actually awarding contracts for the CEV and who cares if its a capsule. It a breath of fresh air and dang it wont cost a billion to launch it each time either<br /><br />I fully believe Klipper will not be used beyond LEO and maybe GEO. But I wish them luck on it....<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />

 

[nacnud]

Parom looks just like a mini FGB (Zarya) is it also decended from the TKS?

 

[shoogerbrugge]

Well the TKS was sort of a spacetug.<br /><br />What I wonder about is whether the Parom will receive solarcells and what kind of propulsion it will have. It seems interesting though to also use the Parom to ferry the manned Kliper from LEO to the ISS, and not only logistical containers.<br /><br />Hopefully both will be developed. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[chriscdc]

I wonder how big they could make the orbital module, if they used a bigelow transhab? Would the rockets they plan on using, be capable of lifting such extra mass?

 

[soccerguy789]

I personally like both the klipper and the CEV. they have very different missions though, so niether is better than the other. for example, were everything to work out as planned, the Klipper would be a far superior vehicle for use in earth orbit, while the CEV , was designed primarilt to leave LEO and GEO, with the ability to be used on the ISS, so it all works out.

 

[shoogerbrugge]

*bump* <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />From flight international: here <br /><br /><b>Lighter Kliper could make towed trip to ISS </b><br /><br />A lighter version of the Kliper six-crew reusable spacecraft is under consideration, say Russian and European sources. The new variant would not have the accommodation module previously seen attached to the capsule. Instead, on reaching orbit, it would dock with a proposed space tug, the Parom, operating from the International Space Station (ISS). <br /><br />The lighter Kliper could be launched on a booster smaller than the proposed Soyuz-3. This may make it easier to launch from French Guiana, an option that has been discussed at the highest political levels (Flight International, 9-15 August). “We are aware of the evolution,” says the European Space Agency. “The second half of the configuration will stay on orbit and act as a space tug, collecting the manned spacecraft and taking it to the ISS and, at the end of the mission, taking it back down to a re-entry de-orbit altitude.” <br /><br />Proposed by Moscow-based Kliper developer Energia, the Parom space tug would enable use of an unmanned version of the spacecraft that carries about 25t of cargo. Like the manned version, the cargo variant would be towed to and from the ISS. ESA is interested in the Parom because it has a “lot of features that lend themselves to potential use for ATV [automated transfer vehicle] technology and hardware”. ESA’s ATV is an unmanned cargo carrier to be launched by Ariane 5.<br /><br />ESA is to hold a meeting of potential Kliper participants during its human spaceflight programme board meeting, which will be part of the agency’s annual programme assessment this year to be held in Paris on 15-17 November. <br />

 

[shoogerbrugge]

now that the storm is over at the original topic, I feel safe to post this. With all the unrelated CSE/ESAS/republican/democatric discussion over at the other thread, we can concentrate on what matters. ESA going to study the earodyninamics of a scalemodel which resembles the Clipper. Sounds like a re-run of the BOR to me, ecspecially when you consider the Rockot the replacement of the Kosmos 3M.<br /><br />Anyway, here is the article, from flight international <br /><br /><b>Europe selects Kliper look-a-like for testing</b><br /><br />A vehicle resembling Russia’s Kliper has been selected to be studied under the European Space Agency’s Atmospheric Re-entry Experimental Vehicle (AREV) project. A scale model could be launched to 150km (93 miles) and would orbit once or twice before re-entering.<br /><br />The AREV could fly on ESA’s Vega small launch vehicle from the Kourou spaceport in French Guiana and land at the Woomera test range in Australia. Vega’s maiden flight is scheduled to take place in 2007. The AREV could also fly on a Russian Rockot launcher and then land in Kiruna, Sweden. <br /><br />Kliper is a six-crew reusable spacecraft proposed by Moscow-based Energia. ESA is proposing to work with Russia’s Federal Space Agency to develop the Kliper as part of its Aurora long-term space exploration programme. The final AREV selection was presented to ESA last month. “We expect to publish the AREV report’s executive summary soon,” says Federico Massobrio, a project manager with Alcatel Alenia Space, the company leading the study.<br /><br />

 

[shoogerbrugge]

If ragnorak doesn't mind, Im going to copy the article in this post as well. As form of archiving.<br /><br /><br />________________________________________<br /><br /><b>Europeans await ministers' Kliper December decision</b> <br /><br />A year ago Russia's calls for international co-operation to develop its proposed Kliper spacecraft (see picture below) seemed fruitless and likely to end as another initiative from a space faring nation that would only ever appear as a graphic in a powerpoint presentation, but 2005 has seen the situation change dramatically. Now its just days before the €3 billion a year European Space Agency (ESA) decides whether to take the plunge and back its development at its member state's ministerial budget meeting in Berlin on 5-6 December. The six crew vehicle is expected to orbit at 450km, carry up to 500kg of cargo as well as the crew, with a reusability level of 80 % and able to make at least 20 flights. Early on there were two versions, a capsule version and a wing version. Comments made by senior figures at Russia's Federal Space Agency (FSA) suggest that the winged version is preferred by the Russian government. With its 2012 in-operation date, it won't escape any space agency watchers that Russia would be getting its own mini-shuttle just two years after NASA retires its orbiter fleet.<br /><br />The beginning of ESA's potential involvement seems to have begun in November 2004 when ESA and the FSA discussed co-operation on manned vehicle requirements. By that point Moscow based Rocket and Space Corporation Energia had proposed Kliper as a six crew reusable spacecraft to replace its exising Soyuz-TMA capsule that ferries International Space Station (ISS) crew back and forth. Those talks led to the FSA offer of co-operation on a Soyuz replacement being reported in May. However ESA's interest in Kliper became apparent when in March it was revealed

 

[teije]

I was doing a bit of reading up on Klipper when a thought occured to me. <br />I can't see any solar panels in any of the pictures that are posted and linked in this thread everywhere. I think I did read somewhere that Klipper is supposed to have an on orbit lifetime at least as long as Soyuz. (6 months.) Now how are they going to achieve that? I don't suppose they'll put an RTG in there, not with humans around for 6 months. And they'll never get such a long on orbit lifetime with fuel cells etc. <br /><br />Does it only have a long on orbit lifetime when docked with a station? Or are there solar panels in the equation somewhere that I haven't seen yet?<br /><br />Anybody who knows this?<br /><br />Thanks adv!<br />Teije

 

[teije]

The odd thing is,<br />on old pictures (2004 and earlier) I can find the solar panels as you say.<br />But on newer pictures and the mock-up they seem to have disappeared.<br /><br />But I guess you must be right, and they will be on there. I can't think of another way to produce so much power for so long.