Terraforming

[PangaeaUtopianAlphaOne]

Terraforming has been my insights for Humanity to do one thing right before exploring the stars and colonize planets. That is to Terraform areas that seem impossible on our planet, but Truly in my Heart, Mind and Soul it's not impossible. If we can Terraform part of a Dessert into a lush fruitful Rainforest and Terraform on Cooled down Lava islands into Green Fields with crops and have a Forest or Jungle, even at our Polar caps in domes to sustain plant and tree life a true evolution of a eco system that all this improves our planets issues then we are meant for the stars, exploring space and colonization of planets. I truly believe we can do Terraform projects on Mars before colonization by Genesis capsule's sort of how pangaea started as one continent. This is myself and my true understanding and Love of the hope of the world evolution.

 

[Mental Avenger]

Interesting.

Since Terraforming literally means “making like Earth” (Terra), every area on Earth is already de facto Terraformed.
Ignoring the semantics, that is an interesting idea. The different climates and ecological systems on Earth are determined by many factors.
The tilt of the axis determines the seasons, but also determines that the poles will be colder.
The size, shape, and relative location of the land masses determines climatic interactions.
Very high mountain ranges and wide flat plains each have their own effect on climate
The Circumpolar Current around Antarctica is the main reason it is so different than the Arctic.
The ocean currents, which are guided by the shapes and locations of land masses, have a great influence on the climates in different locations, such as the relatively mild climate in Europe.
The deep 1000 year ocean currents affect climate in distant places long after the climatic causes.
The Trade Winds carry millions of tons of particulate matter great distances, such as dust from the Sahara ending up in South America.
The Jet Stream has great influence on the climate in different areas, and that climate has great influence on the Jet Stream.
Terraforming another planet, such as Mars, would entail adding things like atmosphere, water, and certain soil nutrients, which would be difficult, and a substantial magnetosphere which would be nearly impossible.
If all that could be done, the planet would end up with deserts, forests, plains, and ice caps like Earth, and there would be nothing anyone could do about it.

 

[YetAnotherBob]

Terraforming has been my insights for Humanity to do one thing right before exploring the stars and colonize planets.

Mars doesn't have enough atmosphere for terraforming. It leaks what little atmosphere it does have too, so an earth level of atmosphere is simply impossible on Mars. The planet is too small for that.
Venus does have enough atmosphere, but that planet has other problems. Temperature is one, solar flux another, but the worst for Venus is the retrograde motion. Fixing any of those is a project that would require thousands if not millions of years by any technique we can imagine.
For Mars, the best approach is most like what is called Paraterraforming. This approach doesn't try to change the planet, just certain areas of it. The traditional domed gardens of Science Fiction are an example of it. So is a little window box greenhouse.
Paraterraforming can be applied to small or large areas as well. Make the areas large enough and from inside, you couldn't see the walls. Mars has a horizon that is only about three miles away after all.
However, if you are a modern human in a society of modern humans, then you spend most of your time indoors anyway. What's a bit more of that?
The average Martian Colonist may very well only see green growing things in the mall courtyards, unless they are agriculture workers or hobbyists. Just look at the modern 'Vertical Farms" to see what I mean.
I have heard that there is a large underground in Montreal where some folks don't come outside for literally years at a time. Mars may well be rather like that. After all, if your apartment building connects by tunnel or subway to your office and the shopping mall, why would you want to brave those Canadian winters?
Martian winters are even worse.
But we will over time modify the planet anyway. The atmosphere for instance is simply too valuable to allow it to continue to erode away into space. So some sort of magnetic field will be needed. NASA already has some studies on placing a large magnet in the Mars-Sun L2 point. (Maybe that's L1, not sure.) They already know how large it would have to be. But that's still much too expensive for any hardware to even be considered, for us, that is.
But don't expect to ever be able to go outside in a tee shirt and shorts. The best we could hope for is something a little worse than the summit of Mount Everest.
Even after Terraforming, you would still need an independent air supply and a bulky suit to survive even a few minutes.
That's just Mars.

 

[Hawkstein]

Mars doesn't have enough atmosphere for terraforming. It leaks what little atmosphere it does have too, so an earth level of atmosphere is simply impossible on Mars. The planet is too small for that.
Venus does have enough atmosphere, but that planet has other problems. Temperature is one, solar flux another, but the worst for Venus is the retrograde motion. Fixing any of those is a project that would require thousands if not millions of years by any technique we can imagine.
...

You nailed it. 100% agree about paraterraforming but underground tunnels/habitats may be more practical. It's the only way to "colonize" Mars at this time.

 

[Mental Avenger]

"Paraterraforming (also known as the "worldhouse" concept or domes in smaller versions) involves the construction of a habitable enclosure on a planet which eventually grows to encompass most of the planet's usable area."

Paraterraforming

Paraterraforming (also known as the "worldhouse" concept or domes in smaller versions) involves the construction of a habitable enclosure on a planet which eventually grows to encompass most of the planet's usable area. The enclosure would consist of a transparent roof held one or more...

terraforming.fandom.com

Impractical on Mars. While it may seem inviting to have domes that let in Sunlight and hold in atmosphere, and eventually encompass the entire planet. Mars is not suitable for that. Mars is too close to the Asteroid Belt which is a ready supply of billions of small rocks, and impacts from even relatively small meteorites would smash any such dome. Also, without a magnetosphere, the radiation on the surface is too great to be blocked by domes. In addition, the cost of building such domes, and the materials required, would be several orders of magnitude greater than underground habitats, especially of Olympus Mons has thousands of mile of lava tubes.

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

I think mars is more of a get an atmosphere project to protect whatever happens on the surface.
What the atmosphere is doesn't really matter and far better to be heavy gasses mars wont loose.
Trying to create an earth like world from Mars i think is impossible other than crashing Ceres into mars and waiting a million years.
Putting Ceres into an elliptical orbit would probably start mars core again so crashing it might not be needed.
Long term project moving Ceres and rates pretty high on the dangerous scale of things to do in a solar system.

IMO making Mars a place that is a safer place a good project, making it into earth2 not possible.

 

[Catastrophe]

I think mars is more of a get an atmosphere project to protect whatever happens on the surface.
What the atmosphere is doesn't really matter and far better to be heavy gasses mars wont loose.
Trying to create an earth like world from Mars i think is impossible other than crashing Ceres into mars and waiting a million years.
Putting Ceres into an elliptical orbit would probably start mars core again so crashing it might not be needed.
Long term project moving Ceres and rates pretty high on the dangerous scale of things to do in a solar system.

IMO making Mars a place that is a safer place a good project, making it into earth2 not possible.

Do you realize the mass of Ceres?

Just google "Ceres Wiki" and you will find:
(9.3835±0.0001)×10^20 kg
That is 93,835,000,000,000 metric tons or 93.835 million million metric tons.

That would take some moving. Where would you get the energy?

Cat

 

[Hawkstein]

Do you realize the mass of Ceres?

Just google "Ceres Wiki" and you will find:
(9.3835±0.0001)×10^20 kg
That is 93,835,000,000,000 metric tons or 93.835 million million metric tons.

That would take some moving. Where would you get the energy?

Cat

From the quantum flux capacitor, duh

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

From the quantum flux capacitor, duh

Like i said impossible or near impossible to make mars earth 2.
Moving Ceres not as crazy as you think, just very dangerous.
Only real way to move large mass items is with small mass items, orbital mechanics of other bodies in close contact with Ceres will slowly change it's orbit.
Multi thousand year project and all those asteroids comets needed to move Ceres are a serious problem to control so we don't have an accidental collision with something.

Moving that many things around in the inner solar system rates in the crazy scale for sure.

Just moving the orbit of Ceres could effect Earths orbit so dangerous for sure.
Might be a useful tool in another solar system but not here

 

[Catastrophe]

I would not want to risk it. Hence my comment.
Cat

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

I would not want to risk it. Hence my comment.
Cat

Not in my solar system thanks

 

[YetAnotherBob]

You nailed it. 100% agree about paraterraforming but underground tunnels/habitats may be more practical. It's the only way to "colonize" Mars at this time.

Paraterraforming is basically gardening 'indoors'. It works just fine underground. You have the option of using electric lighting is likely to be your best bet. There are even some commercial businesses that use it right here on Earth today.
The big glass domes are quite romantic, and I do like them, but, they have problems as far as shielding is concerned. There is also some question of thermal stress and meteorite vulnerabilities. so not ruled out, but not easy either.
More likely to be used will be a basic quanset (sp?) hut type of facility, with walls of compacted earth (mars???) and a single window that the mirrors bounce light through. There will most likely be overhangs such that there is no direct path outside, so as to cut off cosmic rays. A meter of regolith should be sufficient for safety.
But I still think it will be a lot like living in the mall.

 

[Mental Avenger]

Paraterraforming is basically gardening 'indoors'.

No, it isn't. It is important to use the proper terminology in a science based forum.
"Paraterraforming (also known as the "worldhouse" concept or domes in smaller versions) involves the construction of a habitable enclosure on a planet which eventually grows to encompass most of the planet's usable area."

 

[YetAnotherBob]

"Paraterraforming (also known as the "worldhouse" concept or domes in smaller versions) involves the construction of a habitable enclosure on a planet which eventually grows to encompass most of the planet's usable area."

Mars doesn't have enough atmosphere for that. We also can't build structures larger than a few hundred Hectares in size. Still, lots of little structures will serve as well as a few large ones.
But I will still insist that Mars Colonies are right at the edge of what we can actually do just now. Odds are roughly 50/50 that the first attempt will fail and everybody die. As I said elsewhere, the same thing happened to the first couple of English Colonies in America. They failed.
We don't have the option to do what the Spanish did, and simply conquer everybody on Mars.

 

[IG2007]

Look, there is a iron core under the surface of the moon. We must first think to terraform, step by step. Before heading for Mars, we must look up to our moon. Our beautiful moon. It has got no atmosphere. It has got no life (we haven't got to know it yet). Yet, it's always been human beings' ever-interesting place since our birth. First, we should terraform it. Before going to Mars. It can be a fuel-loading place. It can be a tourism's paradise. Or it can just be a large space center. Now, I have also got a plan for it.

Look, I am just a kid of 12 from India. My ideas may sound ridiculous, but still I have quite belief in them. The Moon has got an iron core. Okay, so we can make an artificial Magnetosphere out of it, but how? I have got it's answer as well. It has got no atmosphere, and that's why it's surface temperatures differ so much. So, we can make a huge solar panel array which would convert solar energy to electricity and then we can just drill through the moon and charge up the core of the Moon and boom! There's an artificial Magnetosphere! As the same side of the Moon faces the Earth and the opposite side of the Moon always faces the Sun due to synchronous rotation, we always have energy. Now, we have to make an atmosphere. The crust of the moon is full of oxygen. We can just vaporize it. Boom, an atmosphere to breathe in for us.

Now, everything is possible. Whether a fuel-loading place or a space center, anything's possible on the Moon. I hope my ideas are not so unscientific.

 

[Catastrophe]

Indian Genius

First let me say that I commend you for having ideas, for following through and thinking how those ideas might be put into practice, and for having the courage to express them.
When I was your age I wanted to go for cycle rides. I did not want to stop to consult a map so I invented putting my route on a strip of paper attached by a simple frame on my bicycle and mounted on rollers. As I progressed, I just stopped and wound on the route strip. I did not have to stop completely and open a map, which took time and was difficult on a windy day.
If I had progressed that idea when I grew up, I could have invented SatNav.
But that was a long time ago; nearly 70 years ago, and in those days if you wanted to play a gramophone record you use a machine you wound up by hand. We did not have electronic things like those that exist now, and instead of spin dryers clothes were squeezed through a mangle to get out the water.
However, when I grew older and learned more about science I did invent several things including better and cheaper ways of making personal care and cleaning products which were less irritant to the eyes and skin, and I was granted patents around the world on these and other things. You also learn about practical things. A friend of mine had the good idea to attach the two socks of a pair together with a clip (like a bulldog clip) so the socks did not join others in becoming a pile of odd socks. But it would be useless to patent this because it would be impossible in practice to collect royalties. Imagine knocking on doors in your town and saying “Are you clipping socks together when you wash them; if so you owe me royalties on my patent!”

I have taken some time to begin this question because you are obviously an intelligent kid and you need to keep that spark of inventiveness and go on to great things. However, along the way, you have to temper your ideas with what is practical.

First of all, you can ask why might it be very hard to bring about this idea. Can I find a way through the problems to a better or easier or cheaper solution.

Let’s look at the Moon. Why does it have no atmosphere now? Well, it has virtually no atmosphere because it is much smaller than Earth and therefore has much lower gravity. At some point in their existence most planets will have some sort of atmosphere. Depending on the temperature, sooner or later gases will leak into space. Even now Earth is losing the very last of hydrogen, the lightest gas, which it once had. So the ultimate problem is not providing the Moon with oxygen, it is that the Moon will lose oxygen faster than you can make it.

Sometimes ideas seem good, but turn out to be very difficult or impractical or expensive (or all three). Let’s say we would like to bring the Eifel Tower to London. Even if the French agreed (there is a joke) you cannot just pick it up and carry it. Oh! The Channel Tunnel is too small – let’s widen it – and so on.

The biggest problem with the Moon is that it cannot keep its atmosphere. BUT you can overcome this by deciding not to change the whole Moon but just to have enclosures to live in. Instead of turning the Moon into one city, you just make a hotel, so to speak.
However, now we come to the next problem and that is one of chemistry and I have a university degree in Chemical Engineering. That means I understand both the Chemistry and the Engineering to make it happen.

Now if you take the elements in the Earth, these came about by Nucleosynthesis. This just means that, because of the reactions within stars, certain elements are more common than others. We all know that gold is precious because it was difficult for stars to make. The particular stars involved exploded and destroyed themselves to make the gold we prize so highly..

When the planets formed, the hotter ones nearer the Sun lost the light gases hydrogen and helium. Neon is an jnactive gas so the remainder ones we find on planets are oxygen and silicon. These make silicates. Good, we may be getting somewhere! Now there is a law, or a way things happen, in chemistry, that if the right components are available, they will react to make the most stable product. If they make something less stable, if something more reactive comes along, they will react with that. Having had around 4 billion years, the oxygen and silica have had the time to make the most stable products depending on what was available.

That gives us the problem that the oxygen and silica have formed pretty stable products which, in turn, means they will be difficult to separate. So I am going to set you a project. I will start you on your way and ask if you might find a chemistry teacher to help you.
The problem is: Can you make oxygen quickly enough to supply people on the Moon. We have overcome the first question. We cannot terraform the whole Moon. It would lose oxygen faster than we can make it. Decide how many people you need on the Moon and how much oxygen they will consume. A simple search on the Internet should give you the answer.
Next is the difficult part. How do we get the oxygen. And not just how on paper. We either make it on Earth and transport it (how much fuel will that take?) OR we make it on the Moon, and what energy, chemical plant, and other resources. What do we breathe while we are doing this.

OK. To start you off I searched how to separate oxygen from silicates and one hit was this:


Is there a chemical reaction you can use to separate oxygen from siicates
www.quora.com › Is-there-a-chemical-reaction-you-can-use-to-separa...

However at high temperature you have a gas containing Si, SiO, SiO2 and O2. ... The only practical way I can think of is (as others suggest) using carbon to separate the oxygen atoms from the silica ones in the form of a gas CO, whic... The enthalpy of formation of silicon is -911 kJ/mol.

Part of your question will be where AND HOW to get the carbon.

Off you go. Probably you will need help. This has often happened to me in life also.
If you cannot find the right help, come back to me. But the most value will be for you to think about the problem and see how much you can find out.

Good Luck on your voyage. Please come back here and tell us how you are getting on.
You may even find that the press might take an interest in your story.

Cat

 

[Catastrophe]

Here is another clue:

Rob Hooft, PhD in structural chemistry using molecular modeling and X-ray diffraction.
Answered Aug 29, 2017
Yes, but it is not a good/economic way to produce oxygen.

Sand is chemically very stable, you need to invest a lot of energy to start a chemical reaction from something that stable.

 

[IG2007]

However at high temperature you have a gas containing Si, SiO, SiO2 and O2. ... The only practical way I can think of is (as others suggest) using carbon to separate the oxygen atoms from the silica ones in the form of a gas CO, whic... The enthalpy of formation of silicon is -911 kJ/mol.

Part of your question will be where AND HOW to get the carbon.

Thank you very much for at least not telling me ridiculous. And, I had never thought that a human of more than 70 years can complement me as an "intelligent kid". Now let's come to the topic. You have not told anything in reply of my artificial Magnetosphere idea. I thought that solar wind also erodes atmospheres, like Mars. If we take modern day data as correct statements, Mars also had a breathable atmosphere when it had a magnetic field which eroded by time due to the erosion of it's Magnetosphere. Titan also has a thick atmosphere and Moon's gravity is more than Titan and Titan has also got it's host's Magnetosphere, that's why it's got a thick atmosphere. (Though, I don't know that the Electromagnetic Artificial Magnetosphere would be good enough or not, but I know it's enough to prevent Solar Winds). So, it's not impossible to make a good and breathable atmosphere on Moon as Moon has already got some silicates. And, I just found out that there is almost 95% Nitrogen in Titan's atmosphere. So, if a lighter gas like Nitrogen can be found in so large amounts in Titan, why can't a heavier gas like Oxygen be made in Moon.

And, I have also got ideas to get carbon, that are, C-type asteroids. Carbonaceous asteroids form the majority of 75% of all the asteroids in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Though, it may seem far as, the most powerful rocket engines in the world can reach Mars in a period of 3 months at min. We need large, a really large international project which must be funded by all Space Organisations on Earth like NASA, Roscosmos, ESA, ISRO etc. to start mining the asteroids. Asteroid-mining. I think that's a good idea. It will take about 30 years or maybe 40 years to have enough carbon and a stable Magnetosphere to have an atmosphere at moon. And, then we may have to bring plants. And, we need to paraterraform first to bring plants to Moon. And, then gradually, maybe within a period of almost 90 or 95 years we can fully terraform the Moon.

 

[Catastrophe]

Indian Genius said:

"Thank you very much for at least not telling me ridiculous. And, I had never thought that a human of more than 70 years can complement me as an "intelligent kid"

First of all I have to say that I am actually 81 in two weeks time, and I never thought that any 12 year old would have me lost for words. Please forgive me for calling you a kid. That is the only information you gave me on what to call you. These days one cannot assume whether a "kid" is a young man or a young lady.
Next, I have to say that not only is your knowledge absolutely unbelievable, but your ability to express yourself would make someone twice your age jealous. You are not 'kidding' when you post under the title 'genius'.

Enough. We must get back on topic or I shall be in trouble.
Let's stick to one point at a time. This is not a competition but a way to explore the title subject. Have you any ideas on the oxygen question?

However, I will try to qualify one point you have raised.
"And, I just found out that there is almost 95% Nitrogen in Titan's atmosphere. So, if a lighter gas like Nitrogen can be found in so large amounts in Titan, why can't a heavier gas like Oxygen be made in Moon."

This is all a question of temperature. After all, Jupiter and Saturn are mostly hydrogen and helium. So it is no surprise that Titan, a moon of Saturn, should have a nitrogen atmosphere. Saturn is 10 times further away from the Sun so, by the Inverse Square Law, it receives 1 /(10 x 10) or one hundredth the radiation from the Sun. Are we happy with that point?

Cat

BTW I go under the name Catastrophe because I am very interested in asteroids and particularly the one which killed the dinosaurs. We only exist now because of that asteroid.

 

[YetAnotherBob]

Indian Genius:

The Moon has oxygen bound into it's rocks. Releasing that requires only application of energy, though a lot of that. It also has iron, silicon and carbon also mostly bound up into rocks.
That is nothing new. Our metals here on Earth are also mostly bound up into rocks.
What the Moon doesn't have that we need is hydrogen and nitrogen. There is an atmosphere on the Moon, contrary to what we are told, but it is very tenuous. It's also constantly stripped away by sunlight. That atmosphere is hydrogen from the Solar Wind. It really just sort of piles up on the Moon. The atmospheric pressure there is quite low, something like a billion times less than here on Earth. It's actually even smaller than that.
Still, one might collect some of that. Perhaps. If you had enough power, that is.
Yes, a magnetosphere would help some, but not enough. To confine the plasma (a gas that has some of it's electrons stripped away, which usefully means it conducts electricity and responds to magnetic fields, hence our interest in using it for fusion power) on a body the size of the Moon would require a rather strong magnetic field.
Make the field too strong and it can kill people and destroy machines. I don't know if the field required to hold a useful atmosphere in is quite that strong, but I suspect it may be.
I do know that fields of that strength can be created. The sun has some fields that strong, and some neutron stars have fields thousands of times stronger.
But knowing that a thing can be done and knowing how to actually do it are two very different things.
So any colony on the Moon will need to import hydrogen and nitrogen. Those are needed to make the (indoor??) environment suitable for life. Every other element that is needed for life is already there on the Moon. Not in every place, but that's why there need to be mines in different places.
Oh, like Catastrophe, I am also a retired Engineer. I was an electrical power engineer.
Engineering is a fun field. You get to see a lot of new and exciting things. You even get to create some of them.
So keep looking and wondering. You may just come up with something nobody else has thought of. Also, don't become discouraged because some of us point out flaws. That's a part of designing everything important. There are always problems. Experts have entire teams devoted to finding the problems with any idea. Then the true geniuses take each problem and find a way around it.
That's how we went from kites to airliners to space vessels.
So go try to fly until you can fly all the way to the moon!
You are the future.

 

[IG2007]

Catastrophe and YetAnotherBob,

First to YetAnotherBob, Earth's Magnetic Field's power at its surface is about 25 to 65 microteslas, so we can just do some calculations and make it sure that the Artificial Magnetosphere is powerful enough to be in that range but not less than that and that does not disturbs satellites orbiting the Earth. And, then use the rest of the electricity to power up space colonies, space centres and other things.

And now answering to both of you, sirs. We will first mine C type asteroids for carbon. And then select a small patch of 15 square km on the near side of the moon, cover it up by a huge dome. And then mix carbon with the Moon's soil within that area. And then vaporize it by 100 m 10 times up to 1 km deep and make huge amounts of oxygen and the part that could not be converted to air can be used for different purposes like making machines etc. And then bring 500 m deep soil from Earth and put it on the vaporized space. And then plant plants and also give Nitrogen that was mined from asteroids to the small atmosphere within the dome and create a whole city after that.

 

[Catastrophe]

I think I have made my position clear. There is a saying "Easier said than done".
Let me know when it has been done please;

Cat

 

[Moni999]

I don't know if anyone already said this, but we could restore Mars's atmosphere by making a few factories and releasing enough CO2 to keep heat in. Then we can terraform Mars.

 

[Catastrophe]

Planets and satellites with low gravity like Mars, our Moon etc cannot hold an atmosphere. You can keep supplying with gases forever but they will simply leak away. Best chance is limited constructions of domes or caves rather than trying to change the whole planet / moon.

There is an old saying which is very true here:
Easier said than done,

 

[Mental Avenger]

I don't know if anyone already said this, but we could restore Mars's atmosphere by making a few factories and releasing enough CO2 to keep heat in. Then we can terraform Mars.

At 44% of the Solar Radiation from the Sun (compared to Earth), It would require trillions of tons of gasses to produce an atmosphere on Mars to make it habitable on the surface. Without a magnetosphere, and without any possibility of creating a magnetosphere, the gasses would be continually stripped away by the Solar Wind, a process that is aided by the weak gravity. Mars will not be “terraformed”, not for at least 1000 years, and probably not even then.